# Banter 102: 14Jan26 Devolution and Parish Councils,with Andrew Maliphant {% embed url="" %} *** ### Presentation: {% file src="" %} You are most welcome to download and use this presentation as you wish. A marked down copy is provided at the bottom of the page so that the AI indexing engine cangorge on its contents. The discussion document - on which any reply that we make to the government will be based - is presented immediately below *** ### Discussion Document: {% file src="" %} Please feel free to download this document. Again, for ease of all, and for the indexing system, this document is presented here in full: ***(should you wish to be involved in helping create the response letter that will be going to the government, please get in touch asap with either Andrew () or Amy ()*** **The Potential Role of Town and Parish Councils under English Devolution** Draft discussion document January 2026 Town and parish councils (and newly formed English community councils) are the first tier of English local government, the closest councils to the community. Consequently, they can and should play a distinct role under the current proposals for English devolution. **ENGLISH DEVOLUTION AND COMMUNITY EMPOWERMENT BILL** There has been much criticism of the lack of clarity in the Bill about the future role of town and parish councils under the proposed devolution. Some critics have referred to it as “decentralisation” rather than devolution, noting the lack of arrangements for local democracy in the proposed “neighbourhood areas” (see the relevant Bill clause at Appendix 1), and a consequent reduction in community empowerment. In response to these criticisms, Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Labour) said on December 8th: “The Government value the role that town and parish councils play; they are an important part of local democracy. There are no plans to abolish town and parish councils or to change their powers. Our plans on neighbourhood governance in the Bill are about hardwiring community engagement into local authorities themselves. Parish councils will be an important partner in creating stronger, more responsive neighbourhood governance, as will the whole range of grass-roots groups that support community empowerment.... It is for local authorities to determine whether new parish and town councils are needed, and this is done through the community governance review process.” The detail of neighbourhood area governance is to be included in future regulations, which suggests that now is the time to prepare arguments for proper inclusion of town and parish councils in such new arrangements. NALC will be working with peers on amendments to the Bill at the current Lords Committee Stage on matters such as standards, remote meetings, neighbourhood governance and funding – though a civil servant speaking to the SLCC National Conference in October said there would be absolutely no funds from Government for town and parish councils.
**STATUTORY POWERS** While town and parish councils have relatively few statutory duties, Section 101 of the 1972 Local Government Act allows all tiers of local government to help each other with their responsibilities. This power is already allowing town and parish councils to begin to take over some service delivery from higher tier councils, such as:
* Managing public car parks * Managing public toilets * Managing local markets (Newark Town Council)
This to remind Government that town and parish councils are already and legally “local authorities”. **COMMUNITY** As a further reminder, town and parish councils are obliged to hold an annual public meeting1 to report their activities to the electorate, who re-elect the whole council every four years. In between elections, members of the community can be engaged with their council in several ways, including:
* Informal working parties, as at Steyning Parish Council in West Sussex * More formal sub-committees of the council, as at Battle Town Council in East Sussex * Community organisations can receive grants from local councils under section 137 of the 1972 Local Government Act, provided those grants are seen as a benefit to the wider community * Other informal support can include providing publicity and a venue for community meetings * Joint development of Neighbourhood Plans for the local area
**THE ENVIRONMENT** Climate change is having an increasing impact on every aspect of public and private life. Town and parish councils have some very relevant statutory duties:
* To create allotments2, which not only boost healthy eating and food security but provide residents with exercise and the opportunity to meet and work with others * To consider biodiversity in everything they do3, which allows councils to adopt a biodiversity policy and encourage local biodiversity audits that in turn feed into Local Nature Recovery Strategies and influence biodiversity net gain from developers.
There is also a wide range of other statutory powers they can use, including to:
* Promote the local production and use of renewable energy, as well as energy conservation4 * Include on-site green energy, energy conservation, electric car charging-points, recycling points in the management of community centres and public buildings5 * Promote rights of way routes, walking and cycling, and support community bus services and car sharing6 * Plant trees on and maintain highway verges, as well as managing ponds and commons7
Town and parish councils also work regularly with their local planning authority in creating local emergency plans covering issues such floods, heat waves and wildfires.
**ENERGY** Town and parish councils are already supporting community energy projects such as wind turbines, for example at Draughton in North Yorkshire. The profits from these projects can further support local service delivery and thereby boost the grass roots economy as well as helping to conserve the environment - for example, the wind turbine in Gamlingay in Cambridgeshire is currently providing up to £10,000 per year to spend on services and projects that benefit the local community.
**URBAN AND RURAL AREAS** While it is mostly rural areas in England that have civil parishes, there have been some new urban community councils formed in recent years:
* Queens Park Community Council in London, established 2014 * Chelmsford Garden Community Council in Essex, established 2023 * Taunton Town Council covering the previously unparished areas of the Somerset county town, established 2023 * A similar approach is being considered by Cheltenham Borough Council in advance of the move to unitary authorities in Gloucestershire
The further creation of community councils in urban areas can be progressed with the support of the local planning authority8. Some rural parishes occupy very small areas, but their capacities can be increased by either clustering with other parishes, such as the Suffolk Green Cluster of seven parishes, or fully merging with neighbouring parishes as currently under consideration in several places including Caterham in Surrey and Eastleigh in Hampshire.
**LOCAL GEOGRAPHY** There is a growing concern that the Government’s apparent one-size-fits-all approach based on “neighbourhood areas” pays no attention to local geography. Recent analysis of the situation in North Norfolk has made several points which may be reflected elsewhere as well:
* “If you ask the County \[*Council*] how they interpret \[*neighbourhood areas*], their proposals are to the effect that by ‘Neighbourhood’ they mean areas encompassing between 30,000 and 50,000 people. ‘based on the natural geography of community life’. * “The County proposal is to have a committee for each of the 20 ‘Neighbourhood Areas’ which would include not only elected representatives but also ‘representatives from statutory services, delegates from town and parish councils, police, health, children’s and family services, VCSE organisations, residents’ associations and business groups…’ The impression given is that the committees would be largely consultative, but in any case, their agenda would be huge.” * “The contention in the documentation that \[*neighbourhood area committees*] should have ‘ the power to make binding decisions on certain local services, scrutinise local service performance and, most crucially, control and allocate a devolved budget for local projects and priorities’ seems to me either completely unrealistic or be an example of centralised rather than devolved governance, particularly since they would be largely unelected bodies.”
**POTENTIAL ROLES UNDER DEVOLUTION** As one example of the proposed changes under devolution, the Government White Paper in December 2024 suggested that the responsibility for matters relating to climate change be held at strategic authority level. This will be some distance from where action needs to happen on the ground in terms of carbon reduction, local resilience to climate change including flood management, food security and nature recovery. For greater effectiveness and clarity, there could be a clear separation of duties under devolution: * Strategic decisions made at strategic authority level * Local Plans and other policies developed at planning (unitary) authority level * Neighbourhood plans and practical project delivery at town and parish council level The threads that join these three include: * Strategic alignment of local government bodies * Co-ordination of publicly funded and community effort * Appropriate skills and capacity at each level There could also be data collection at the local level, including from biodiversity audits, and outputs from community energy projects and energy efficiency measures, which are then aggregated upwards to higher tiers of government. The Great Collaboration initiative is already working to develop this facility with the help of digital mapping. As part of the alignment of local government, the 48 county associations of town and parish councils – independent organisations with directors appointed from their parish council membership – could be suitable bodies to take part in practical discussions at unitary authority level.
**PROPOSAL** It is recommended that Government takes advantage of the status quo by formally clarifying these links. This would help produce more effective local government, better community engagement and environmental management (and potentially at no extra cost to HM Treasury), as well as giving welcome clarity to town and parish councils about their role under devolution. An updated Local Government Act could further cement the role by enabling some reforms that have already been requested: * Allowing hybrid council meetings, such that able-bodied and housebound residents alike can all take part in local democracy * Giving all local councils the power of competence, giving them much wider scope of action without having to have a trained clerk or two-thirds of the council elected rather than co-opted. * Giving local councils the power to suspend their councillors for up to six months for offences against the code of conduct, such suspension to be approved through the local planning authority’s monitoring officer, as through the Ombudsman in Wales9.
Other recent legislative proposals could also support local resilience for everyone’s benefit, not least the power for community energy projects to sell energy direct to users rather than to major energy companies through the medium of the National Grid10. **FOOTNOTES** * 1\. Local Government Act 1972, Schedule 12, p. 14 * 2.Small Holdings and Allotments Act 1908, ss 23, 26 and 42 * 3.Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006 s.40, confirmed by the Environment Act 2021 * 4.Climate Change and Sustainable Energy Act 2006. S. 20 * 5.Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1970, s.19. (Local Government Act 1972, s. 133 * 6.Parish Councils Act 1957, s.1; Local Government Rating Act, 1997, s.25, 28 & 29; Transport Act, 1985, s.106A * 7.Open Spaces Act 1906, s.15; Highways Act 1980, ss 47 * 8.Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007, s. 94 * 9.Local Government Act 2000 s.69 and the relevant Orders made by the National Assembly for Wales under that Act * 10.Local Electricity Bill - Parliamentary Bills - UK Parliament
**APPENDIX 1** - Clause 60 of the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill 60 Local authorities: effective neighbourhood governance (1) Local authorities in England must make appropriate arrangements to secure the effective governance of any area of a specified description that falls within the authority's area (a “neighbourhood area”). (2) “Appropriate arrangements” for the purposes of subsection (1) are such arrangements as are specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State. (3) Regulations under subsection (2) may include provision— (a) requiring the establishment and maintenance by local authorities of specified organisational structures for the governance of neighbourhood areas (or for the use of specified existing organisational structures for that purpose); (b) about the number, membership, funding and review of such structures; (c) about the functions that may or must be carried out by such structures for the purpose of ensuring the effective governance of neighbourhood areas (including for the structures to carry out functions on behalf of the local authority); (d) requiring the carrying out of such activities for the purpose of ensuring local engagement with the neighbourhood area as may be specified. (4) Regulations under this section may— (a) confer a function, including a function involving the exercise of a discretion, on any person; (b) provide for exceptions. (5) In this section— “local authority” means— (a) a county council, (b) a district council, (c) a London borough council; “specified” means specified or described in regulations under this section.
(6) Regulations under this section are subject to affirmative resolution procedure. *** ### Meeting Summary: Jan 14, 2026 11:53 AM London ID: 834 5460 8536 ### Quick recap The meeting focused on discussing the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill and its implications for town and parish councils, including opportunities for influence through the National Association of Local Councils. The group explored various aspects of neighborhood governance, including new aviation plans, strategic authorities, and the potential expansion of parish council roles in placemaking and economic development. The discussion concluded with plans for a campaign to educate the public about community governance and the formation of a working group to collaborate on drafting content for submission to NALC and SLCC. ### Next steps * [Amy: Write up a draft document/analysis on the role and future of town and parish councils in the context of devolution and neighbourhood governance, incorporating ongoing research, and share with the group for review.](https://us02tasks.zoom.us/?meetingId=L0rIxWG3Rhun%2F7J9UQTY5w%3D%3D\&stepId=7b97119f-f14b-11f0-b137-ae5ef682c089) * [Andrew Maliphant: Feed back the outcomes and discussion points from this meeting to NALC and SLCC, including the intention to develop a sector-wide position document.](https://us02tasks.zoom.us/?meetingId=L0rIxWG3Rhun%2F7J9UQTY5w%3D%3D\&stepId=7b971a22-f14b-11f0-813e-ae5ef682c089) * [Working group (Amy, David Morgan-Jones, Graham, and others who volunteered): Collaborate to prepare and review a draft document/structure outlining how town and parish councils could effectively operate within new local government and neighbourhood area structures, for sector-wide comment and potential adoption by NALC/SLCC.](https://us02tasks.zoom.us/?meetingId=L0rIxWG3Rhun%2F7J9UQTY5w%3D%3D\&stepId=7b971dbd-f14b-11f0-8dd6-ae5ef682c089) * [All interested participants: Send any further thoughts or suggestions to Andrew Maliphant or Graham to inform the development of the draft document/structure.](https://us02tasks.zoom.us/?meetingId=L0rIxWG3Rhun%2F7J9UQTY5w%3D%3D\&stepId=7b9720ca-f14b-11f0-be11-ae5ef682c089) * [Andrew Maliphant: Speak to NALC and SLCC about the need for and progress on developing a practical sector position document, and coordinate with the working group.](https://us02tasks.zoom.us/?meetingId=L0rIxWG3Rhun%2F7J9UQTY5w%3D%3D\&stepId=7b972392-f14b-11f0-b3a0-ae5ef682c089) * [Working group: Circulate the draft document to the wider group/sector for comment and feedback before finalizing.](https://us02tasks.zoom.us/?meetingId=L0rIxWG3Rhun%2F7J9UQTY5w%3D%3D\&stepId=7b972655-f14b-11f0-8e18-ae5ef682c089) ### Summary #### English Devolution Bill Discussion The meeting focused on the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill, which is currently in the committee stage in the House of Lords. Andrew Maliphant explained that while the bill does not significantly address town and parish councils, there is an opportunity to influence its development through the National Association of Local Councils' connections in the House of Lords. Graham noted that 23 people had registered for the meeting, though some were still missing. The group discussed the importance of updating Zoom screen names to indicate attendees' locations. #### English Aviation and Local Governance The meeting discussed the English aviation plans and the government's strategy for local authorities, including the introduction of neighbourhood governments and unitary councils. The government's draft bill, Clause 60, proposes new neighbourhood areas with their own governance structures, potentially bypassing existing parish and town councils. Norfolk County Council suggested creating neighbourhood areas of 30,000-50,000 people as part of a new strategic authority combining Norfolk and Suffolk. Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, in the House of Lords, confirmed that there are no plans to abolish parish councils or change their powers, while acknowledging their role in neighbourhood engagement. #### Community Identity and Parish Planning Andrew Maliphant discussed the potential loss of community identity due to the disappearance of borough councils and the creation of new parishes in areas like Taunton and Cheltenham. He emphasized the importance of neighbourhood planning and suggested that town and parish councils need to be more involved in this process. Maliphant also touched on the power of competence for parish councils and the need for alternative sources of funding as direct government funding for town and parish councils is unlikely. #### Empowering Parish Councils for Climate Action The meeting discussed climate change decisions being held at strategic authority level, while local climate action work continues at the community level. Andrew Maliphant presented on a report about empowering town and parish councils, highlighting their role as locally-driven institutions and the need for capacity building. Graham raised concerns about the practicality of managing planning committees in larger neighbourhood areas with volunteer councils. The discussion touched on the government's view of parish councils and the potential for technology, including AI, to support their work. #### Enhancing Parish Council Roles The group discussed the role of town and parish councils in the context of new neighborhood area approaches, with Andrew Maliphant noting that these councils might have an expanded role in placemaking and economic development. Alex highlighted the importance of maintaining the uniqueness of each town, while David Morgan-Jones raised concerns about the lack of awareness among central government officials about the existence and capabilities of parish and town councils. The discussion touched on the potential for confusion and increased responsibilities as new legislation is implemented, with Andrew mentioning the existing powers under the 1972 Act that allow town and parish councils to undertake certain tasks with district and county cooperation. #### Pride in Place Program Overview David Newman explained the Pride in Place program, which provides £2 million annually for 10 years to deprived areas in England and Wales. The program aims to empower local communities through neighbourhood boards with decision-making powers, though it initially starts with district councils before transitioning to local management. David noted that parish councillors are excluded from chairing these boards, which are meant to be led by community leaders rather than elected officials. Allan expressed concerns about the program's structure and potential for mismanagement without proper local authority oversight, fearing that the significant funding could be wasted. #### Neighbourhood Boards Volunteer Governance Initiative The group discussed the establishment of neighbourhood boards, which are volunteer-led and must be set up by June, with plans for their first year to be submitted to government by late November. David explained that while chairs are unpaid, boards can employ staff either directly or through local organizations, with district councils often providing initial secretarial support. Amy highlighted the importance of valuing volunteer work and suggested replicating the town and parish council model rather than creating new governance structures, emphasizing the need for better resourcing and integration of community ambitions into neighbourhood plans. #### Parish Council Collaboration Strategies The group discussed the future of parish councils and the need for a new appraisal of their capabilities in the current political climate. They explored options for parish councils to work together, such as clustering or merging, to share resources and be more effective. The participants emphasized the importance of careful planning and community engagement to ensure the success of such initiatives. They also touched on the need for more structured models and pathways for community projects, with Andrew mentioning his published work on the topic. #### Streamlining Parish Council Structure The meeting focused on the role and structure of town and parish councils, with Sue highlighting the diversity in council sizes and responsibilities, while Andrew emphasized the need for a unified structure that reflects this variation. Graham shared legal powers and national planning policies related to climate change, and the group discussed the importance of community engagement and publicity to clarify council roles. Andrew suggested creating a document outlining the proposed structure and process, with input from various stakeholders, while Amy offered to contribute research to this effort. Harriet stressed the need for town and parish councils to be recognized for their democratic and community contributions. #### Community Governance Education Campaign The group discussed the need for a campaign to educate the public about community governance and solutions that align with local concerns. Andrew Maliphant emphasized the urgency of drafting ideas and submitting them to NALC and SLCC, as regulations for neighbourhood area committees may be in development. A small working group formed, including Amy, Graham, David, and Harriet, to collaborate on drafting content. The group agreed to provide feedback to NALC and SLCC about the discussion and the need for further work. *** ### Chat: \ 00:27:34 Gillian Heath Duxford PC: What is CilCA please? \ 00:28:58 Joolz | Community Climate Action (& Hopton PC): - interesting in terms of listening to communities and community assemblies. \ 00:29:21 Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: CiLCA is the Certificate in Local Council Administration — the key Level 3 professional qualification for parish and town council clerks and officers in England and Wales. It proves competence across law, governance, finance, and community engagement, and is required for a council to adopt the General Power of Competence (GPC). \ 00:30:09 Gillian Heath Duxford PC: Reacted to "CiLCA is the Certifi..." with 👍
00:30:21 David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Another way the Government is changing local control is in the Pride in Place programme.
00:31:12 Sue Burton Battle TC East Sussex: David, can you say something about that
00:37:42 Joolz | Community Climate Action (& Hopton PC): Really interesting presentation - thanks. I've got to dive into next meeting, so will catch up on discussion on recording 🙏
00:45:01 Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: No need to reinvent the wheel, but what will work in practice? \ 00:48:19 Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Is it politicians or civil servants that need persuading? Or all of them? And how? \ 00:49:49 Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: Are the chairs of the new neighbrouhood areas subject to election? or are we looking at yet more diminution of democracy? \ 00:49:59 Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: neighbourhood... sorry \ 00:51:09 Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Good question! Presumably to be answered when we see draft regulations \ 00:55:27 Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: Are members of neighbourhood boards paid, or are they volunteers like Town & Parish Councillors? Does this ust add ANOTHER layer of bureaucracy to life?
00:57:37 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: List of the 169 place in Phase 2 of PiP: \ 00:59:18 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: List of the 75 places In Phase 1 of the PiP:
01:03:02 David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Littlemore Parish Council has been taken over by car fanatics led by a racist.
01:03:28 Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: Link to our report \ 01:03:35 Dan Stone - Centre for Sustainable Energy: Reacted to "Link to our report h..." with 👍
01:04:05 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: Interesting but must leave for another meeting
01:04:43 David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): If a district council gets converted into a town council within a unitary it will be politicised.
01:05:16 Dan Stone - Centre for Sustainable Energy: Forgive my opportunism, but given we're discussed community energy, please see CSE's free support programme for new community energy groups: Hope this is of interest
01:07:40 Dan Stone - Centre for Sustainable Energy: this is v. interesting, but I have to go. @Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration potentially interested in collaborating / contributing to a response. (Will talk to my managers and do some more reading)
01:07:53 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Part 1 of several: List of legal powers of Parish Councils with respect to ClimateChange:Parish councils are subject to various pieces of legislation and guidance that empower or require them to act on climate change. \ Primary Legislation\ Climate Change Act 2008: Establishes the UK's legally binding target to reach Net Zero emissions by 2050. While the Act does not impose direct carbon budgets on individual parish councils, it sets the national framework that influences all tiers of local government.\ Sustainable Energy and Climate Change Act 2006: Specifically grants parish and town councils powers to promote and support local energy-saving measures and community initiatives to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.\ Planning and Energy Act 2008: Allows local planning authorities (which parish councils influence via Neighbourhood Plans) to set energy efficiency standards that exceed national building regulations. \ 01:08:04 Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Reacted to "this is v. interesti..." with 👍
01:08:40 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Part 2:\ National Planning Policy and Guidance\ National Planning Policy Framework (NPPF): Requires the planning system to support the transition to a low-carbon future. Parish councils use the NPPF to justify Net Zero requirements in their Neighbourhood Plans, such as mandating renewable energy installations or Passivhaus standards for new developments.\ Future Homes and Buildings Standards: As of 2026, new homes are expected to meet significantly higher energy efficiency standards. Parish councils are advised to align their local planning responses with these standards to prevent "carbon lock-in" from sub-standard buildings. \ Operational Guidance for 2026\ Sustainability Reporting Guidance (SRG) 2025-26: Although primarily aimed at larger central government bodies, the updated guidance for the 2025-26 financial year emphasizes integrated reporting and data quality for environmental metrics. Parish councils are increasingly encouraged to adopt these principles for transparency. \ 01:09:29 Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Plans for TPCs need to reflect the different sizes \ 01:10:19 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Part 3:\ NALC Net Zero Guide: The National Association of Local Councils (NALC) provides specific "Achieving Net Zero by 2050" guidance for local councils on practical steps like switching to LED street lighting and installing EV chargers.\ Local Net Zero Hubs: Parish councils can access technical assistance and funding (e.g., Public Sector Decarbonisation Scheme) through their regional Local Net Zero Hubs. \ Key Action Areas\ Land & Asset Management: Councils are empowered to manage their allotments, burial grounds, and open spaces to enhance carbon sequestration (e.g., through tree planting or reduced mowing).\ Procurement: Guidance suggests parish councils should consider Carbon Reduction Plans when procuring contracts, even if they are below the mandatory £5m threshold for larger authorities. \\ \ 01:10:40 David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Two dimensions of size - population and funded services. \ 01:10:47 Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Reacted to "Two dimensions of si..." with 👍
01:11:06 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Part 4 of 4:\ Baseline Tools: The Impact Tool is recommended by major bodies to help parish councils calculate their community's carbon footprint and identify priority areas for action.
01:12:55 Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: I will be holding a focus group with parish and town councils in a few weeks on taking a value based approach to community and how to best measure that. Let me know if you are interested
01:12:56 Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: Legal Thresholds for Requesting a New Parish Council A petition to create a parish council (via a Community Governance Review) must be signed by: 1️⃣ Areas with more than 2,500 electors * At least 7.5% of registered electors 2️⃣ Areas with 500–2,500 electors * At least 250 registered electors 3️⃣ Areas with fewer than 500 electors * At least 50% of registered electors These thresholds come directly from national guidance on establishing new parish or town councils.
* 01:13:06 Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: I can potentially help...
* 01:14:02 Gillian Heath Duxford PC: Thanks - have to go \ 01:15:48 Sue Burton Battle TC East Sussex: Got to go. Thanks so much
* 01:15:51 Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Town and parish councils are key to continuity \ 01:16:25 Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: Absolutely, Harriet - well said
* 01:16:38 Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: Reacted to "Absolutely, Harriet ..." with ❤️ \ 01:17:06 Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: My apologies I have to go and well said Harriet
* 01:17:11 David Michael Cuthbert: shouldn't Nalc be leading this
* 01:17:21 Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: Thanks
* 01:18:07 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Andrew, I take it that there is no mention of Transition Towns in the paper: ie those groups of people with strong views about community, how they should be self-governed, and have a pride in place…….and are setting up their own resilience and food security arrangments?
* 01:18:41 Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: Thank you, very interesting. I have to go.
* 01:18:43 Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: I have done a lot of research on transition towns… interesting to make that connection \ 01:19:50 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: May I join your focus group, Amy - a growing team?
* 01:19:57 Jo Stone, Shiplake, Oxon: Thanks
* 01:20:07 Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: Yes of course! \ 01:21:11 Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: Happy to help, but consider that I'm the least qualified - but I do feel v. strongly about this! *** ### Audio-transcript: (again,for AI indexing) 66 \ 00:10:44.530 --> 00:10:47.240 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Right. Can we all see that first screen? 67 \ 00:10:47.640 --> 00:10:48.380 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Yes. 68 \ 00:10:49.420 --> 00:10:50.640 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Right, okay. 69 \ 00:10:52.160 --> 00:11:03.859 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill, which is currently going through its committee stage in the House of Lords, is sort of three stages for any bill before it becomes an Act of Parliament. Once it goes through and gets chewed over in the House of Commons. 70 \ 00:11:04.070 --> 00:11:06.770 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: It goes through, gets chewed over in the House of Lords. 71 \ 00:11:06.970 --> 00:11:10.580 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And it goes back to the House of Commons for finishing off. 72 \ 00:11:10.730 --> 00:11:21.320 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Sadly, or ineffectively, effectively, the Lords can make all sorts of good suggestions about it, but the Commons don't have to accept them, and the Commons' final word is final. 73 \ 00:11:21.460 --> 00:11:25.550 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And that is something that was settled, you know, several, several years ago. 74 \ 00:11:26.020 --> 00:11:32.319 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: But what it means is that if there are things that we want to include in the discussions about. 75 \ 00:11:32.540 --> 00:11:37.930 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: at the committee stage of the House of Lords, and the National Association of Local Councils has got some connections in there. 76 \ 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:47.449 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: That's one option that we might do. But the thing is, what the current plan for the bill is saying, it doesn't say very much about town and parish councils at all. 77 \ 00:11:48.750 --> 00:11:55.839 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, we'll see about that. So, just a quick run through what we've got in there. Okay, have we got the second page all right? 78 \ 00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:56.520 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Yes. 79 \ 00:11:56.520 --> 00:12:06.760 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Okay, so, English evolution plans, this is something that's come off the web. They aim to shift power through new strategic authorities, each with a mayor. 80 \ 00:12:07.170 --> 00:12:09.670 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Powers over planning, transport, and economic growth. 81 \ 00:12:09.830 --> 00:12:19.309 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And the interesting thing is introducing neighbourhood governments for community input. Okay, this is the bit where we're concerned about, and moving towards unitary councils to streamline services. 82 \ 00:12:19.450 --> 00:12:31.270 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So there seems to be a suggestion that actually, for going to unitary service councils, changing local government, that there needs to be separate neighbourhood governments than currently exists. 83 \ 00:12:31.520 --> 00:12:40.679 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So somebody, and more than one person, presumably in government, in civil service collectively, have decided that. And I don't know exactly how or why they've done it, but that's what they've done. 84 \ 00:12:41.310 --> 00:12:53.579 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, officially speaking, the government has said, we'll deliver on the government's commitments to widen and deepen evolution across England. Okay, okay, okay. Support the government's plan to rebuild and reform local government. Okay. 85 \ 00:12:53.750 --> 00:12:57.759 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And here we are, give communities stronger tools to shape their local areas. 86 \ 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:03.050 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Now, parish and town councils are pretty useful tools, or can be already. 87 \ 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:19.590 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, there's another straw in the wind here that's sort of trying to bypass the existing situation. All right, there are town and parish councils in many urban areas, but somebody along the line, some people have decided that… to go and approach things in a different way. 88 \ 00:13:19.930 --> 00:13:29.089 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So there's a link there to what the government says about that. You don't need to write all these down, ladies and gentlemen. This will be made available after the meeting, so with all these links, you'll be able to pursue them. 89 \ 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:31.180 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: At your leisure. 90 \ 00:13:31.650 --> 00:13:47.310 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: The Local Government Association is somebody that sits in between local government and central government. It gets some funding from central government, we're not aware of it. It's mostly about districts and county councils, and it's run very much on lines that reflect the political makeup of the nation. 91 \ 00:13:47.400 --> 00:13:55.269 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: It doesn't seem to do very much with town and parish councils either. Both NELC and SLCC national bodies are connected to it. 92 \ 00:13:55.570 --> 00:14:03.530 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: But when local government association talks about local authorities, they do not mean parish and town councils. They mean districts and counties and unitaries. 93 \ 00:14:03.760 --> 00:14:07.330 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, what they're… what they've, why have we gone down here? 94 \ 00:14:08.640 --> 00:14:12.660 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, the local government association's done a briefing on all this stuff, and it says. 95 \ 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:22.909 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: There's a danger of not delivering on its omission for how strategic authorities will work with councils. When it says councils, it means districts and counties, it doesn't mean parishes. 96 \ 00:14:23.290 --> 00:14:27.639 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: We must ensure the model is not narrowly focused on mares alone. Absolutely right. 97 \ 00:14:28.220 --> 00:14:33.470 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Success relies on councils, communities, and public service working together, in partnership. Fine. 98 \ 00:14:33.640 --> 00:14:44.549 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So that's all good. Those are… it's all straightforward. The devil, of course, is going to be in the detail, but at least the local government association, frankly, as the government, sort of saying nice things on the top. 99 \ 00:14:44.990 --> 00:14:51.400 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Here's a gentleman. This is the current Secretary of State for Environment, Food and River Repairs, but he's also managing 100 \ 00:14:51.570 --> 00:14:54.999 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: this. He's in charge of this particular piece of legislation. 101 \ 00:14:57.670 --> 00:15:03.570 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So… The key bit within the draft bill is this one, close 60. 102 \ 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:06.700 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And this is where this thing about neighbourhood area comes in. 103 \ 00:15:07.820 --> 00:15:21.389 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Any area of specified description that falls in the authority's area, a neighborhood area. So they're developing a new kind of area. We're not talking about council areas, we're not talking about parishes, we're talking about a neighborhood area. Someone's decided that that's what they want to have. 104 \ 00:15:22.450 --> 00:15:32.739 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: In terms of having neighbourhood area committees, which is the way this thinking from government is currently going, they are being piloted in a couple of places in the UK already, particularly in Surrey. 105 \ 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:44.820 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So this is not something that is coming completely out of nowhere. It's been an idea for a while, and it is being tested out in a couple of places. They're having neighborhood air committees. And these are not necessarily, as we'll discover. 106 \ 00:15:44.940 --> 00:15:47.469 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Closely connected with town and parish councils. 107 \ 00:15:48.090 --> 00:15:55.699 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: There's going to be regulations about how neighbourhood areas are managed. This is new, fabulous neighbourhood governance coming forward. We haven't got any drafts yet. 108 \ 00:15:56.350 --> 00:16:04.089 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, local authorities, which would probably be the unitary authorities, they've got to have organisational structures for governments of neighbouring areas. 109 \ 00:16:04.580 --> 00:16:23.109 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: They've thought to have things about, how to ensure the effective governance in neighborhood areas, ensuring local game with neighbourhood areas. So somewhere on the line, they've got a pretty good idea that neighbourhood areas is what they want in order to link in with the new local evolution. So there's no mention at all we had. 110 \ 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:25.490 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Of parish and town councils. 111 \ 00:16:25.980 --> 00:16:34.249 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Well, there's a non-mention, because they're talking about local authorities, and they may talk about counties, districts, borough councils. They do not mean parish councils. 112 \ 00:16:34.810 --> 00:16:45.170 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So there's a dichotomy in the way government treats parish and town council. Sometimes we're considered local authorities, and sometimes we're not. And in this occasion, for this cause. 113 \ 00:16:45.290 --> 00:16:54.440 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: We're not. We're saying we're not a local authority, we're somebody else. So that's a slight, sort of, effective, sort of, bypass of what parish and councils are at. 114 \ 00:16:55.520 --> 00:17:04.020 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Each area that's having to look at new devolution is having to respond to this in different ways, obviously having to reply to government, saying what they've got in mind, what they'll be doing. 115 \ 00:17:04.510 --> 00:17:07.519 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And so we got some information back from what's happening in Norfolk. 116 \ 00:17:09.579 --> 00:17:19.559 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Norfolk County Council is suggesting that they have a single unitary for the whole of Norfolk, and that, to be part of the new strategic authority, which would be combining Norfolk and Suffolk. 117 \ 00:17:19.770 --> 00:17:25.619 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And they're saying, they're affected neighbourhood, they mean areas compassing between 30,000 and 50,000 people. 118 \ 00:17:26.060 --> 00:17:28.920 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Based on the natural geography of community life, hurrah. 119 \ 00:17:29.660 --> 00:17:45.900 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: this is, you know, to suddenly have a new organization, a new structure, in addition to the unitary authorities, and excluding parish and town councils, for 30,000, 50,000 people, that's the kind of thing that might be happening. That's the sort of debate that's happening at the moment. 120 \ 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:52.949 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: County Council in Norfolk have a committee for each of the 20 neighbourhood areas within Norfolk. 121 \ 00:17:53.150 --> 00:17:56.960 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Including representatives from Parallel and Parish Councils. 122 \ 00:17:57.130 --> 00:18:01.169 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: representatives, police, child, all these different things. So, huge… 123 \ 00:18:01.490 --> 00:18:05.309 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: potential membership of these… of these, committees. 124 \ 00:18:05.780 --> 00:18:20.359 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, you know, these are early days, but when you're trying to think of having to get all those people together, some of us have really tried to get all these people together in meetings at different occasions. Not always easy to get these people together on a regular basis to make decisions and all the rest of it. 125 \ 00:18:21.530 --> 00:18:26.189 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, again, it'll be interesting to see how the various pilots in Surrey and other places are going on. 126 \ 00:18:26.260 --> 00:18:44.270 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: But this is certainly what they're talking about in… from Norfolk County Council's point of view. There will be different views about the country. Some of us here may be from areas where they're looking at devolution actively, and you may have some particular examples and ideas to fit in, but this is just a silver one from Norfolk. 127 \ 00:18:45.110 --> 00:18:52.590 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, this is the implication of people saying, right, thank you very much, town and parish councils, but we want to have a separate way of doing this. 128 \ 00:18:53.570 --> 00:18:56.839 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: What does… we'll say, does it mention parish councils at all? 129 \ 00:18:57.170 --> 00:18:58.390 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Well, it does. 130 \ 00:18:58.560 --> 00:19:09.779 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: It does in terms of community assets, lands of community value, in terms of parish councils trying to recognize that things are of community value. 131 \ 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:11.529 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: We get mentioned there. 132 \ 00:19:11.830 --> 00:19:19.079 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Preferred community buyer, nominating community group, it can be the parish council, so we get the mention there. 133 \ 00:19:19.250 --> 00:19:21.639 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Because there's lots of other practical things in this. 134 \ 00:19:21.790 --> 00:19:33.849 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: bill, not just about how districts and counties and universities operate and other strategic authorities. And, oh, in this section, a councilor means we can be a parish council. 135 \ 00:19:33.890 --> 00:19:48.680 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So one part of the bill is saying parishes are being excluded as local authorities, another part they're being included. So that's classic, isn't it? That just shows how things are being looked at variously by people in authority. 136 \ 00:19:49.660 --> 00:19:50.560 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Okay. 137 \ 00:19:50.820 --> 00:19:58.389 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, National Association of Local Counselors now has been successfully lobbying, peers in the House of Lords to make comment on this. 138 \ 00:19:58.500 --> 00:20:10.519 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: draft bill, and Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, who's, within the Housing Committee Local Government Department, is the responsible person for the government in the House of Lords. 139 \ 00:20:10.810 --> 00:20:17.070 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And there were lots of questions from peers on the 8th of December, and she said a number of things in reply, and this is all going to be in the notes you're going to get. 140 \ 00:20:17.290 --> 00:20:21.629 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Here we go. The government value the role that town councils play. Thank you. 141 \ 00:20:23.120 --> 00:20:41.290 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: There are no plans to abolish powering parish accounts, or to change their powers. That's interesting, because they're not talking about giving us extra powers, but they're not talking about taking away our powers either. We can actually do quite a lot of things already. So that's interesting, to be said, and this is the government speaking to us through Baroness Taylor. 142 \ 00:20:41.850 --> 00:20:54.489 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Our plans for neighbourhood engagement are about hardwiring communication into local authorities, and we're going to make sure that the unitary trees are connected to their communities and in the ways that you've seen an example from Norfolk. 143 \ 00:20:54.950 --> 00:21:00.070 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Okay, so the devil's clearly going to be in the details, and we haven't got any into those details yet. 144 \ 00:21:00.350 --> 00:21:10.819 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: One of the questions is, if there's going to be regulations about this, but do we have… do we find… what do we want to find ways of saying things before we get to that stage, so we get some ideas established? 145 \ 00:21:11.520 --> 00:21:17.209 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Parish councils will be an important part in creating stronger, more responsive neighborhood governments. 146 \ 00:21:17.570 --> 00:21:24.279 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Okay, well, that's nice to know as well. It'd be nice to see that hardwired into something somewhere. 147 \ 00:21:24.820 --> 00:21:28.779 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So… Baroness Ted is acknowledging Parish Councillors, fair enough. 148 \ 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:39.139 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And then it is at local authority to determine whether new parish and councils are needed, because we can do some… have some new, parish councils, particularly in town, particularly in urban areas. 149 \ 00:21:39.510 --> 00:21:53.199 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Again, here we are, local authorities serving the new parish in town, so that local authorities, quite often when people say that, even though, lawfully town and parish councils are local authorities, quite often people just mean districts, counties, and you can choose when they use that language. 150 \ 00:21:53.800 --> 00:21:56.830 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So that's what, Meredith Taylor has said. 151 \ 00:21:57.110 --> 00:22:00.719 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, it's not an open door, it's not a closed door either. 152 \ 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:03.069 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Interesting to hear what she said, what she said. 153 \ 00:22:04.790 --> 00:22:09.209 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So we've had some thoughts already about this, different people have been feeding in ideas about it. 154 \ 00:22:09.650 --> 00:22:18.519 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: There are lots of existing council powers that we can use as town and parish councils. One of them is Section 101 of the good old 1972 Local Government Act. 155 \ 00:22:18.870 --> 00:22:21.490 \ David Michael Cuthbert: Which allows local authorities to help each other. 156 \ 00:22:21.490 --> 00:22:24.250 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And we're very much included, town and parish councils in that. 157 \ 00:22:24.610 --> 00:22:30.839 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And so, if there's something that's a statutory responsibility of a unitary, of a district, of a county, of a borough. 158 \ 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:38.769 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: parish councils have a legal potential for helping them with it. Obviously, you do it with their consent, you speak to them about it. 159 \ 00:22:38.950 --> 00:22:45.330 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: But we can already do a whole pile of things that other councils can do, provided, if we want to do it, people want to get engaged. 160 \ 00:22:45.570 --> 00:22:50.779 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So that's interesting. We've heard Baroness Taylor say, that's not going to change, so that will still be there. 161 \ 00:22:53.280 --> 00:23:09.079 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Parish councils are often known as community buildings, so this is about bigging up parish councils. There are things that we do, and we have skills and abilities to make plan for these assets. This is something that we bring to local government, can bring to the party, if you like, in terms of Labour governments under devolution. 162 \ 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:20.239 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: In a number of places where the borough councils have disappeared, Taunton in particular, Taunton Dean Borough Council disappeared, and the next day, Taunton Town Paris had appeared. 163 \ 00:23:20.520 --> 00:23:38.279 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So places which haven't been parished, which are becoming parts of unity authorities, as in Somerset, are looking at how they might do these things. And Cheltenham is another case in point. Cheltenham Borough Council will be disappearing one way or another, and they're already looking at creating a new parish in the areas of Cheltenham that are currently not perished. 164 \ 00:23:38.430 --> 00:23:47.040 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Manchester has already had some of this experience. There's a potential loss of community identity if we don't have these extra parishes with it. 165 \ 00:23:47.220 --> 00:23:48.889 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: In unperished areas. 166 \ 00:23:49.420 --> 00:23:58.689 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: the evolution, which puts government decisions further away from people. So having new parishes, they tend to be called community councils when they're new, would be fine. 167 \ 00:23:59.530 --> 00:24:07.460 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: A large opportunity to increase the role of neighbourhood planning. We've had bits of thinking about neighbourhood planning recently, and the government's reduced funding for people presenting neighbourhood plans. 168 \ 00:24:07.850 --> 00:24:11.999 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: But neighbourhood planning tends to be happening at parish and town council level. 169 \ 00:24:12.140 --> 00:24:14.610 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Again, nobody's suggesting that's going to change. 170 \ 00:24:15.290 --> 00:24:20.790 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, there are things that towns and parish councils are already doing, will already be doing. 171 \ 00:24:21.270 --> 00:24:39.460 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And so, to keep in touch… you can imagine a neighborhood area committee of… for 30 to 50,000 people, trying to get them to produce a neighbourhood plan. It's not really going to work, is it? Because you're talking about a whole host of different communities and areas underneath those neighbourhood… so-called neighbourhood areas. 172 \ 00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:42.640 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, neighbourhood planning is a very interesting point about how 173 \ 00:24:42.890 --> 00:24:48.959 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: We might say town and parish councils need to be part of this whole scheme of things, not least because of neighbourhood planning. 174 \ 00:24:49.520 --> 00:25:04.310 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Another further comment is there must be a huge amount of information about how, neighbourhood plans have been developed so far, in terms of what's worked well, what size of area they were, been using at, and this can show the practical sides of community planning at the local level. 175 \ 00:25:04.810 --> 00:25:11.089 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, you know, you think neighbourhood area committees are going to be doing this neighborhood planning and actually effectively working out what's happening at the local level. 176 \ 00:25:11.330 --> 00:25:23.430 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: this, suggestion to say, no, that's not likely to happen. We need to think much more about the neighbourhood planning, card for town and barrage councils being played more heavily. So that's a very interesting point there. 177 \ 00:25:25.090 --> 00:25:34.769 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Okay, having more parish councils. Clearly, there is an existing lawful procedure, a community governance, a governance review, whereby, if we want to have a new parish council. 178 \ 00:25:34.770 --> 00:25:47.550 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: we can do that. Particularly in urban areas, it's very useful, as I mentioned, Taunton, mentioned Cheltenham, there's other places, in London. The Queens Park Community Council in London was, created in 2014. 179 \ 00:25:47.620 --> 00:25:52.030 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And that was the first new parish in London for some several centuries, I think. 180 \ 00:25:52.190 --> 00:26:08.200 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: But there are ways in which we can do it. At the moment, there is a veto at the district authority level, to whether to allow it or not, but there is a process. And there's lots of things happening around the country about this, so that's something to be aware of. 181 \ 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:20.040 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: The power of competence, we've talked a little bit briefly about powers. A lot of things are available if a parish has got the power of competence, in other words, if it's got a trained clerk and two-thirds of the councils are elected. 182 \ 00:26:20.270 --> 00:26:30.929 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: But there may be other ways of doing it, and there is, efforts being made through NALC and other bodies to try and extend the power of confidence to everybody, whether they've got these qualifications or not. 183 \ 00:26:31.170 --> 00:26:40.169 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: This is suggesting there's silk light, whether that might be a way of doing… getting enough qualification at the plant level to get the power of confidence. 184 \ 00:26:40.190 --> 00:26:55.960 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And certainly, when you're doing things with community energy projects, we can help and support community energy projects as town and parish councils. We can't necessarily lead on them, and the power of competence with various were involved in that. And the great thing… one of the great things about these 185 \ 00:26:55.990 --> 00:27:02.209 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: community energy projects, is it can bring in money to the community for local projects and the things that are having locally. 186 \ 00:27:02.360 --> 00:27:11.979 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And that's going to be more and more important, I think, as time and a half goes by. At the moment, town and parish council budgets are not capped by government. We can ask for whatever we like in terms of parish precepts. 187 \ 00:27:11.980 --> 00:27:23.690 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: But as time and a half goes forward, and money gets tight generally, having other sources of income in our local community can be worthwhile. Interestingly, the current bill actually gives the power of competence to strategic authorities. 188 \ 00:27:23.870 --> 00:27:28.380 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So they don't… they don't have to… they don't have to have qualifications or stuff, they're going to get it. 189 \ 00:27:28.800 --> 00:27:35.100 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So it's slightly worrying if they could be telling us what to do when we know differently. So that's an interesting problem with the power of confidence. 190 \ 00:27:35.570 --> 00:27:40.290 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Just to finish, I know some family ideas, and some of us will have some other ideas to share in a minute, I'm sure. 191 \ 00:27:40.450 --> 00:27:55.679 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So the national bodies in Elkan, National Association of Local Council, Society of Local Council Clerks were monitoring the passage of the bill. Now, we're working with peers at the current… amendments to the bill at the current stage. There are things about standards, remote meetings, neighbor governments, and funding. 192 \ 00:27:55.680 --> 00:28:07.580 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: which are things that have been on the agenda for a while. We want to be able to have hybrid meetings as town and parish councils, so that people who are housebound can come in and take part, as well as people who are able-bodied and come to the actual meeting. 193 \ 00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:22.980 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: That's one of the things. There are things about discipline of parish councils. If a councillor is somewhat out of order, there can be a process whereby they are suspended for 6 months. You know, that's just something they have in Wales, we don't have in England at the moment. 194 \ 00:28:23.180 --> 00:28:35.109 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Suggestion from NARC about the evolution is that we've got county associations of town and parish councils, and in terms of linking through to town and parish councils, in terms of neighbourhood governments, if we like. 195 \ 00:28:35.110 --> 00:28:43.999 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: County associations of town and parish councils may be ID in what it's delays with the new unitary authorities. So that could be another part of the, of the, of the… 196 \ 00:28:44.040 --> 00:28:46.330 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: structure going forward. 197 \ 00:28:46.390 --> 00:28:54.240 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: What, you know, why do we have to have these complicated neighbourhood area committees when we have got county associations of town and parish councils? 198 \ 00:28:54.990 --> 00:29:11.260 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: The other bit of news is that the National Conference from SLCC in October, a civil servant came along from the… from the right government department, said a number of things, didn't… couldn't specify anything, but what she did say straight up, there's going to be no direct funding from government for town and parish councils. 199 \ 00:29:11.320 --> 00:29:18.200 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: We sort of knew and suspected this anyway, but that was a very definite statement, the one definite statement that the lady made. 200 \ 00:29:18.310 --> 00:29:21.530 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So that avenue is, 201 \ 00:29:22.350 --> 00:29:29.739 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: closed. If we're going to have more responsibilities, if we're going to be doing things, if we're going to carry out our existing roles. 202 \ 00:29:29.990 --> 00:29:33.109 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: We maybe need to be thinking about, 203 \ 00:29:33.700 --> 00:29:41.239 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: sources of funding. Yes, we can raise our parish precepts. Yes, we could get money, perhaps, from planning gain. Yes, we can get things for community energy projects. 204 \ 00:29:41.510 --> 00:29:44.880 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: That's likely to be coming down the road towards us in a bit more. 205 \ 00:29:45.260 --> 00:29:47.159 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: detail, and not everybody's going to be… 206 \ 00:29:47.270 --> 00:29:48.850 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Keen to get involved in that. 207 \ 00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:57.420 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So here's a quick, picture of East Anglo. So we've had some, feedback from, Norfolk already. 208 \ 00:29:57.510 --> 00:30:07.210 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: The Great Collaboration has been carrying out early work within Cambridgeshire, Essex, Norfolk and Suffolk. We sent out a survey form of 209 \ 00:30:07.300 --> 00:30:18.949 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: what things are happening in their local area, particularly in relation to things to do with climate change and nature recovery. You can see down the left-hand side all the different boxes that people could have ticked, and you can see on the right, 210 \ 00:30:19.360 --> 00:30:22.670 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: All these things appeared, and Graeme, who's here, has been… 211 \ 00:30:22.670 --> 00:30:26.870 \ David Michael Cuthbert: Heavily involved in developing that, and so we can now see those. 212 \ 00:30:27.120 --> 00:30:38.770 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: see those, things there. The government's white paper, suggested that matters relating to climate change will be held at strategic authority level, in other words, right at the top of the new tree. 213 \ 00:30:39.280 --> 00:30:45.840 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Those sorts of decisions would be taken. Meanwhile, of course, the work happens at the local level, and it already is happening in many different ways. 214 \ 00:30:46.370 --> 00:31:02.940 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So that, in terms of devolution and local government changes, how the climate change action and process is managed is actually an important part of the whole mix. It's not the whole story, but it's certainly what we talk about a lot, and the great collaboration and something needs to be done. 215 \ 00:31:03.530 --> 00:31:15.300 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So there's that mapping which we've just started going. We actually had a meeting yesterday with Norfolk Wildlife Trust, and they've got a local nature recovery strategy map, which has got huge amounts of detail about, 216 \ 00:31:15.840 --> 00:31:19.110 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Different wildlife habitats, different areas, and so forth. 217 \ 00:31:19.330 --> 00:31:31.760 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: to log into. But what they haven't really got space for is where are the projects, where are the community projects, where are the voluntary groups happening on the ground? And we're looking to expand this map to include those voluntary groups as well, so… 218 \ 00:31:31.800 --> 00:31:39.590 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: We're looking at a time whereby people can get into a map like this and find out where their local groups are, find out whether to join or to get good practice from. 219 \ 00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:44.709 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And we're getting a lot of that from town and parish councils, we can get it from community groups as well. 220 \ 00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:50.469 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So there's some practical stuff already happening on this particular agenda in terms of getting people to work together. 221 \ 00:31:52.260 --> 00:32:10.629 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: David, who's here with us today, raised this point as well. Another straw in the wind about the government's view of town and parish councils. There's a neighbourhood board set up on the government's Pride in Place program, but the latest government says you can't be a… if you're a parish council, you can't be the chair of the neighbourhood board. 222 \ 00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:29.460 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Why have they said that? You know, what's that all about? Then once they've got the program going, maybe that can go over to a parish council afterwards, but again, another straw in the wind. Our government somehow doesn't seem to care for parish and town councils in the way that they should, so it's a bit curious, and thank you, David, for raising that one. 223 \ 00:32:30.220 --> 00:32:35.259 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Amy Burnett, here we go. It's a nice piece of, 224 \ 00:32:36.040 --> 00:32:53.950 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: It's a photograph that Amy took, a nice piece of public graffiti there. You can talk to us about that at the moment, but the paper that Amy and two colleagues produced, The Need to Empower Town and Published Councils. This was published in December at Bourbon University. Amy's spoken to one of our sessions in the past. 225 \ 00:32:54.390 --> 00:32:58.990 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Town and parish councils are essential, place-based, locally-driven institutions, absolutely. 226 \ 00:33:00.610 --> 00:33:19.740 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And also, ready-made government structures, bridging local and strategic goals. Absolutely. We've got… we're the nearest local government to the public, we're not entirely stupid, we can actually manage to do different things, and to link in with other organizations, provided it's properly arranged. 227 \ 00:33:19.870 --> 00:33:37.409 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: complication, complex situation to do more with less. In other words, a lot of property town and parish councillors are volunteers. So, how that operates on the ground, yes, we've been looking at a lot of it in the world of climate, but that is an issue. There is a link there included to the whole report. 228 \ 00:33:38.150 --> 00:33:41.559 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And this is some of the recommendations from the report. 229 \ 00:33:41.840 --> 00:33:48.850 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, unitary strategic authorities should generally support local lay of government, absolutely. 230 \ 00:33:49.970 --> 00:33:56.910 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Capacity building of town and parish councils, because we, as we know, the smallest parish council has only got 5 councils and probably a part-time clerk. 231 \ 00:33:57.420 --> 00:34:07.039 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: If there's going to be more weight, if there's… if we're going to be more closely connected into this government devolution, then capacity building is going to be a concern, an issue. 232 \ 00:34:07.450 --> 00:34:24.259 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: What about innovation? We've got some ideas. We should be having peer-to-peer support networks. Kate, graduation's already helping with that, but that's a very good point to be making. Let's not all try and do it all from scratch to start with. Let's share, let's have some ideas together, let's get some good practice going between ourselves. 233 \ 00:34:24.540 --> 00:34:39.570 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Suggestion that technology pathways, including AI, might help. Ai is a bit controversial artificial intelligence at the moment, but that's one suggestion from the report that could help with Town and Parish Council's capacity. Okay, that's a suggestion. 234 \ 00:34:39.870 --> 00:34:52.230 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And finally, we've got standing orders for town and parish councils. They're regular ones that we're all supposed to follow. And it may be that, in terms of this neighborhood area idea, in terms of getting more 235 \ 00:34:52.230 --> 00:35:03.140 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: clarity with involvement of committees that there might be something else that's put in modern standing orders about this. At the moment, we can already have subcommittees or working parties from various town councils that involve 236 \ 00:35:03.710 --> 00:35:20.100 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: involve the communities. That's not necessarily spelt out in current model standing orders, but there's ways in which they could be operated. So what we're saying is, yes, there are things that should be happening here. Yes, there's a role for town and parish councils. Yes, it needs carefully thinking about it, and it will need some support. 237 \ 00:35:21.780 --> 00:35:23.409 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So this is my last slide. 238 \ 00:35:23.630 --> 00:35:25.260 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Well, thousands cheer. 239 \ 00:35:27.940 --> 00:35:35.510 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: what do we think? We're going to open the discussion now. So, what about if there's strategic decisions at strategic authority level. 240 \ 00:35:35.750 --> 00:35:44.620 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Local plans, other policies at unity authority level, neighbourhood plans, practical project liability at town and parish council level. That seems to make a bit of sense. 241 \ 00:35:46.010 --> 00:35:56.359 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: That's only my suggestion. See what everybody thinks. There are threads that join… so at least if there's a strategic alignment to local government bodies. Town and parish councils are local government bodies. Something like that would clarify that. 242 \ 00:35:57.450 --> 00:36:05.320 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: They're talking about coordination and public funded and community effort. Yes, town and parish councils are actually particularly well-placed to have a role in that. 243 \ 00:36:05.600 --> 00:36:20.520 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And appropriate skills and capacity at each level. So we don't have everybody, everybody at the level doesn't need to know all the details about how to set up a community energy project, and people at the Tallin Parish Council level don't need to know about how to set, you know, strategic authority budgets. 244 \ 00:36:20.720 --> 00:36:31.369 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: There… in terms of capacity building, in terms of training, in terms of skills, having different roles at different levels seems to make a lot of sense in that… in terms of learning and training. 245 \ 00:36:32.090 --> 00:36:37.910 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And finally, whatever it is we can talk about today, or agree subsequently, and we'll obviously work with Nalcom SLCC as well. 246 \ 00:36:38.300 --> 00:36:41.339 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: How are we going to get… get the message through to government? 247 \ 00:36:43.520 --> 00:36:45.489 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Right, I'm gonna stop sharing. 248 \ 00:36:45.970 --> 00:36:48.999 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: But I think you've heard enough from me. That's half an hour, that's plenty. 249 \ 00:36:50.330 --> 00:36:54.859 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: I'll have a look at the chat, Graham, if you wanted to take over the chair again. 250 \ 00:36:55.540 --> 00:37:01.120 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: I was just going to make a simple point about numbers, which I think is, 251 \ 00:37:01.230 --> 00:37:04.000 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: integral to this. So, every… 252 \ 00:37:04.410 --> 00:37:18.029 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: parish council that I've been on has had a planning committee, which takes a look at planning applications, and it takes a major amount of time, it's highly controversial, it absolutely depends upon local knowledge. 253 \ 00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:30.029 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: And it's all run by volunteers, and we're doing that in villages from 500 to 3,000 people. How on earth are they going to manage with an organization with 50,000 people. 254 \ 00:37:30.030 --> 00:37:40.379 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: boggled mind, frankly. I think it's entirely impractical to suggest that you could do what is done at the moment by parish councils in a neighbourhood area. 255 \ 00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:43.010 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Organization, whatever that's going to be called. 256 \ 00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:45.410 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: So that's my 10 pence width. 257 \ 00:37:46.440 --> 00:38:00.630 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Yeah, and I think we're not talking about losing town and parish councils, but how do we actually link into all of this? Because clearly in the current bill, and potentially in the neighbourhood area regulations, we're not getting a big mention. Tan, you've got your hand up, mate. 258 \ 00:38:00.630 --> 00:38:14.270 \ Dan Stone - Centre for Sustainable Energy: Yeah, hi. Thanks for an interesting session. I sort of agree with lots of what you said about the sort of lack of clarity about how… how this new structure would relate to, kind of, parish and town councils. I just wanted to reflect on my experience, 259 \ 00:38:14.380 --> 00:38:20.309 \ Dan Stone - Centre for Sustainable Energy: I sort of used to work in Bristol City Council, and there they had a kind of, neighbourhood 260 \ 00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:21.470 \ Dan Stone - Centre for Sustainable Energy: forum. 261 \ 00:38:21.490 --> 00:38:31.500 \ Dan Stone - Centre for Sustainable Energy: set up, basically, across the city. And it worked quite well, and it is sort of set up with, neighbourhood planning institutions, and sort of 262 \ 00:38:31.500 --> 00:38:47.989 \ Dan Stone - Centre for Sustainable Energy: when you had significant development schemes, you would have pre-application engagement with… with those communities ahead of a scheme coming in. And so I sort of think it sort of potentially, except the point about, kind of, the amount of people within one of these neighbourhoods, totally agree with that. 263 \ 00:38:48.050 --> 00:39:04.170 \ Dan Stone - Centre for Sustainable Energy: But I think potentially it makes up for… it might make up for a bit of a democratic deficit, and offer an opportunity for that sort of better engagement. Now, whether that… I don't think that really aligns with the changes in the NPPF, but nevertheless, the opportunity's there. 264 \ 00:39:04.260 --> 00:39:11.840 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: That's the National Value Policy Framework, yeah. I think, it may be that as we get into this, as we go forward, that there… 265 \ 00:39:11.960 --> 00:39:19.779 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: we have a role for Town and Parish Council. We might find… decide there is a role for the… a larger neighborhood committee, but not trying, as you say, trying to do everything. 266 \ 00:39:19.960 --> 00:39:31.950 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And so that's a thought. Maybe if we're going to get these neighbourhood area approaches anyway, which apparently now seem to think that this bill may become an Act of Parliament by Easter, you know, 267 \ 00:39:32.110 --> 00:39:46.299 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: then actually we may be thinking about what they… not just what we do as town and parish councils, but what neighbourne area does, you know, and how that all connects together. Certainly at the moment, from what we're seeing, there doesn't seem to be a lot of thinking going on about that. Alex, please, Alex from Hartford. 268 \ 00:39:46.680 --> 00:39:55.330 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: Hello, I'm in an area, East Hutz, with 5 market towns, and it seems to me we're fully perished, and it seems to me 269 \ 00:39:55.560 --> 00:40:15.950 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: the big selling point is about placemaking and the sense of identity that I can't see them appreciating when it's sitting at a higher level. And it links into that agenda the government has about pride of place, and I imagine it's about increasing footfall in the economy and GDP in terms of people going to shops. 270 \ 00:40:15.970 --> 00:40:22.429 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: And I suppose… Our strongest argument is the way of finding ways of linking into their agenda. 271 \ 00:40:22.560 --> 00:40:23.969 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: On growth. 272 \ 00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:40.900 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Yeah, the economic thing is interesting, because it is mentioned in the bill and the guidance notes as well. Obviously, government needs tax revenue, it needs VAT income, it needs all kinds of things happening, in other words, to pay for the things that it needs to. 273 \ 00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:48.040 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: At the same time, in terms of local employment, local activity, what makes sense at a very much local area, 274 \ 00:40:48.180 --> 00:40:57.959 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: that's interesting. We can't all suddenly be the host of a new, sort of, ICI, or national supermarket, or everything, but in terms of what happens locally. 275 \ 00:40:58.110 --> 00:40:59.810 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Again. 276 \ 00:41:00.810 --> 00:41:06.909 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Economic development at the local level is quite patchy at the moment, because it's not a statutory requirement on district councils. 277 \ 00:41:07.100 --> 00:41:21.419 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: when new councils come involved, whether they're doing some more about it or not, and of course, it's something that, town and parish council's not necessarily done a great deal with, but Frank, what you're saying is that we need to be perhaps alert to that, and see where we might have 278 \ 00:41:21.780 --> 00:41:31.219 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: where we might make some connections into that… into that growth agenda. And certainly the other thing about it, of course, is people trying to build houses on our green fields, so there's another thing. 279 \ 00:41:32.300 --> 00:41:45.910 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: But people want to live in vibrant places, and I mean, like, we talk about in my town council, about the spirit of Hartford, and we've done quite a lot of work on strategies and sustainable tourism, so we've probably gone beyond what we have to do, but I mean, that is… 280 \ 00:41:45.910 --> 00:41:57.059 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: But it's been ambitious, I guess, about what we can do, and that will be very special and unique that these unitary authorities won't be able to do, because they're not going to have the connections at a local level. 281 \ 00:41:57.390 --> 00:42:04.760 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Yeah. So we're beginning to think already about, in effect, an expanded role for towns and Parish Councils, not just acknowledging us for what we are. 282 \ 00:42:04.890 --> 00:42:11.529 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: that we could be doing more, and then this is where the capacity building that Amy and colleagues have mentioned come in. 283 \ 00:42:11.530 --> 00:42:32.699 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: And I think emphasizing the uniqueness, because what we don't want… I mean, we're on the edge of London, but everyone says, oh, we don't want to live in a dormitory town. You know, the new people that will be added don't want to live in a dormitory town. The people who already live there don't want to live in a dormitory town. We want to continue to celebrate and make each town different and somewhere unique to live. 284 \ 00:42:32.700 --> 00:42:35.599 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: I have got another, another, another point to make. 285 \ 00:42:35.600 --> 00:42:47.990 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: Sure. Which… so… so I get really frustrated, so… so when… when the transfer… if assets are transferred, it really frustrates me, the idea that town and parish councils 286 \ 00:42:48.220 --> 00:43:08.199 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: would have to pay above, say, a valuation price for an asset when it's being transferred between one public body to another public body, and I don't know whether it's possible to make a strong point about that, but it seems to me you're asking taxpayers to pay twice for an asset they've already paid for. I hope you understand where I'm coming from, but I. 287 \ 00:43:08.200 --> 00:43:08.580 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Avoid me. 288 \ 00:43:08.580 --> 00:43:10.630 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: I feel very strongly about it. 289 \ 00:43:10.630 --> 00:43:11.660 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Yeah, yeah. 290 \ 00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:20.049 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Absolutely. Yeah, that needs to be reckoned. I mean, there's been a little bit in there about community right to buy, but, the question is… 291 \ 00:43:20.050 --> 00:43:22.430 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: Should we really have to buy it? 292 \ 00:43:22.430 --> 00:43:25.849 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Yeah, right, thanks for that, Alex. David? 293 \ 00:43:26.040 --> 00:43:28.689 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: You've got your hand up. David Morgan Jones, sorry. 294 \ 00:43:28.690 --> 00:43:33.110 \ David Morgan-Jones: Andrea, hi. Just, some sort of thoughts. 295 \ 00:43:33.990 --> 00:43:37.669 \ David Morgan-Jones: I was in London at a… at a meeting, 296 \ 00:43:37.910 --> 00:43:42.070 \ David Morgan-Jones: where we're talking about net zero, and it's a series of, there's a, 297 \ 00:43:42.220 --> 00:43:46.780 \ David Morgan-Jones: a shadow minister, that was coming from the Conservatives, and there was something else. 298 \ 00:43:47.010 --> 00:43:55.159 \ David Morgan-Jones: And I raised the issue about how do we engage at parish and town council level, and it was astonishing. 299 \ 00:43:55.290 --> 00:43:57.560 \ David Morgan-Jones: The complete level of ignorance. 300 \ 00:43:58.210 --> 00:43:59.250 \ David Morgan-Jones: exists. 301 \ 00:43:59.420 --> 00:44:05.899 \ David Morgan-Jones: In the center about the existence of these particular entities. 302 \ 00:44:05.910 --> 00:44:22.299 \ David Morgan-Jones: Mind you, Mayor Copper, Mayor Copper, I mean, I… before I… I settled into a community, I had no idea about them either. So I think one of the biggest issues is about education of the civil servant cohorts in London and ministers. 303 \ 00:44:22.300 --> 00:44:26.529 \ David Morgan-Jones: About, the existence of parish and town councils. 304 \ 00:44:26.580 --> 00:44:32.529 \ David Morgan-Jones: And I could almost see, a pleading note going up saying, please don't reinvent the wheel. 305 \ 00:44:32.640 --> 00:44:42.150 \ David Morgan-Jones: Yeah. Because I see these neighborhood plat- these neighborhood groups, or whatever, it's simply reinventing what already exists, because people simply don't know we exist. 306 \ 00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:49.559 \ David Morgan-Jones: And the other issue is one of the great collaboration talks we had, about biodiversity. 307 \ 00:44:49.730 --> 00:45:01.059 \ David Morgan-Jones: When we were looking… discussing with the Somerset, Unitary Authority, one of the things that was made very clear was that they are asking parish and town councils to do more and more. 308 \ 00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:07.360 \ David Morgan-Jones: So as they become creatives, they are starting to try and delegate 309 \ 00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:16.040 \ David Morgan-Jones: responsibilities down to parish and town councils, often for areas for which we have no statutory responsibility. 310 \ 00:45:16.350 --> 00:45:34.029 \ David Morgan-Jones: So I think there's a right muddle about to happen when this legislation goes through. And as you pointed out very clearly in your presentation, the complete lack of incoherence and ignorance that is going through at the moment is somewhat concerning. 311 \ 00:45:34.540 --> 00:45:45.110 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the Act, the 1972 Act, Section 101, which allows us to do anything that districts and counties can do, obviously with their cooperation Commission. 312 \ 00:45:45.130 --> 00:45:58.429 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: is not very well known, and not well established, and so when Baroness Taylor says, we now wish to change the powers of town and parish councils, actually, we've already got, if we choose to use it, a power to help these other areas with… 313 \ 00:45:58.430 --> 00:46:16.180 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: those sorts of facilities. Obviously, there's still a capacity issue. We're going to take on toilets, public toilets, parking, markets, and so forth. How is that going to get managed? But, I've actually got a fuller document about all of this, which is… from which I've drawn this presentation. I'll add it to the chat in a minute, so people can download it. 314 \ 00:46:16.180 --> 00:46:20.659 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: David Newman, you've got things about prime place to say, I think. Yeah. 315 \ 00:46:20.910 --> 00:46:27.670 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Yeah, Sue asked me to say a bit about it, so I'll just point out… How it's… 316 \ 00:46:28.280 --> 00:46:32.190 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Parallel, but different to what is in the bill. 317 \ 00:46:33.110 --> 00:46:33.460 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Right? 318 \ 00:46:33.460 --> 00:46:41.290 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): First thing, the scale is all over the place. The first one selected were whole towns. 319 \ 00:46:41.570 --> 00:46:51.880 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): The most recent batch that came in the autumn are median super output areas of about 7,000 people. 320 \ 00:46:52.410 --> 00:46:59.169 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And one of them happens to be within Blackbird leaves, which is why I started finding out about it. 321 \ 00:47:00.200 --> 00:47:06.550 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): C… It isn't to do with economic growth. 322 \ 00:47:07.330 --> 00:47:11.040 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): It's focused on What? 323 \ 00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:16.059 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): It's often usually thought of as redevelopment. 324 \ 00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:27.860 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): So it's all the things that you talk about when you do a redevelopment project in an area. So, health, housing, skills, 325 \ 00:47:29.430 --> 00:47:32.680 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Places to enjoy sports activities at the whole lot. 326 \ 00:47:33.450 --> 00:47:36.670 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And the whole list supplied 327 \ 00:47:37.270 --> 00:47:48.699 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): in the latest documents of things that you can do without needing to make a business case looks like a list of everything that's ever been tried in the country on redevelopment. 328 \ 00:47:50.330 --> 00:47:59.020 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): The… And in it, they recognize 329 \ 00:47:59.510 --> 00:48:10.939 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): parish councillors are councillors, so they exclude all councillors, not just parish ones, from being the chair of a neighbourhood board. The heart of it 330 \ 00:48:11.310 --> 00:48:18.909 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): It's a neighbourhood board with actual powers to make decisions and spend government money. 331 \ 00:48:20.160 --> 00:48:25.819 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Basically, 2 million pounds a year for 10 years. 332 \ 00:48:26.980 --> 00:48:27.540 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Good. 333 \ 00:48:28.510 --> 00:48:35.609 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): In an area which is one of the 10% most deprived by government statistics. 334 \ 00:48:35.780 --> 00:48:39.139 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): in… I think it's England and Wales in this case. 335 \ 00:48:39.500 --> 00:48:40.110 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Yep. 336 \ 00:48:40.310 --> 00:48:42.449 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): There isn't a Scottish programme. 337 \ 00:48:44.020 --> 00:48:46.670 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And… the aim 338 \ 00:48:47.040 --> 00:49:03.279 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): They explicitly say they want to be able to transition by year three to have the whole thing managed locally, but it starts off with a district or unitary council doing that, although a community organization 339 \ 00:49:03.460 --> 00:49:11.799 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Which can include, but doesn't have to be a parish council. Can be its secretariat at the beginning and eventually take over. 340 \ 00:49:13.000 --> 00:49:17.329 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And the board… they've got a board which is meant to have 341 \ 00:49:18.360 --> 00:49:24.480 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Maybe 8, 10 people for the small ones, much bigger ones for ones that cover a whole district. 342 \ 00:49:26.410 --> 00:49:34.990 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And yes, they do say, They want it to be full of community leaders. 343 \ 00:49:35.600 --> 00:49:42.620 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): So, not too many parish councillors, because the distinction between a community leader and a parish councillor. 344 \ 00:49:42.970 --> 00:49:44.640 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Interesting. 345 \ 00:49:44.830 --> 00:49:58.960 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): But yes, expect them to be on it. And the community leaders can be community organizations, but they can be something like a GP or school teacher, someone who's recognized locally. 346 \ 00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:12.020 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And they do even suggest having a competition to find the chair. The chair has now got to be local, or locally connected. That's in part of clarification. 347 \ 00:50:12.540 --> 00:50:15.619 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And they suggest a competition to find the chair. 348 \ 00:50:16.730 --> 00:50:24.290 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): One of our local councils said it was better to find the members by sortition, like in a citizen's assembly. 349 \ 00:50:24.660 --> 00:50:27.359 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): But that doesn't seem to fit with the government. 350 \ 00:50:28.220 --> 00:50:34.599 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And… They mention, but don't say much about a wider forum beyond the 351 \ 00:50:35.240 --> 00:50:41.190 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): But the board once established and approved will have… 352 \ 00:50:41.590 --> 00:50:51.320 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): powers, all the usual council powers, they list them. And the list of powers is that of any council, including parish council, to do with planning. 353 \ 00:50:52.310 --> 00:50:58.200 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And they suggest taking Often, some are the ones our districts are reluctant to do. 354 \ 00:50:58.420 --> 00:51:01.739 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): With particular licensing powers and so on. 355 \ 00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:05.840 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And they mention neighbourhood plans as part of that. 356 \ 00:51:08.240 --> 00:51:11.140 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And… It… 357 \ 00:51:14.980 --> 00:51:18.950 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And the Neighbourhood Board will eventually have powers. 358 \ 00:51:19.300 --> 00:51:27.219 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): tattoo… Basically, they produce plans once they're approved by the central government, because it's their money. 359 \ 00:51:27.350 --> 00:51:29.199 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): They say, go ahead and do it. 360 \ 00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:32.240 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): That's that one. 361 \ 00:51:33.140 --> 00:51:36.750 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And that… is… 362 \ 00:51:38.150 --> 00:51:45.809 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): All what I told you, we didn't know about until the paper came out just before Christmas, as it started off much vaguer than that. 363 \ 00:51:46.150 --> 00:51:46.470 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Right. 364 \ 00:51:46.470 --> 00:51:52.590 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Just like this… Seems to be starting off fairly vague. 365 \ 00:51:53.430 --> 00:52:10.420 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Yes, that's my sense as well, and I think the idea that, this actually came to us from a clerk in Cambridgeshire, that a neighbourhood plan, the neighbourhood plan as it currently exists, is a great foot on the ground from town and parish councils, regardless of what else might be happening at the high level. 366 \ 00:52:10.670 --> 00:52:15.439 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: But at the same time, as you said, David, then these larger area plans, which are… 367 \ 00:52:15.730 --> 00:52:26.230 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: being mooted. It's like government… you… I think we're just transparent to government. I don't think they're deliberately trying to sideline us, but I don't know. Alan, what's your view, mate? Yeah. 368 \ 00:52:26.640 --> 00:52:45.009 \ Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: Yeah, it fills in with what David's just been talking about in relation to this Pride in Place documentation, which I've read. And obviously, I'm a councillor, so I've been excluded, and we've got an area of deprivation that's been awarded this money over 10 years. 369 \ 00:52:45.070 --> 00:52:53.089 \ Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: The issue also is actually it draws in the local MP direct onto this board as well, as part and parcel of it. 370 \ 00:52:53.260 --> 00:53:03.650 \ Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: So, the structure itself, like David points out, doesn't seem to be anything that has, anything that people… 371 \ 00:53:03.960 --> 00:53:08.459 \ Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: Pulled together until it's formed, and then when it's formed. 372 \ 00:53:08.900 --> 00:53:13.759 \ Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: It's got immense powers, which just doesn't make sense, because 373 \ 00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:19.259 \ Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: If they're not people that have been playing in this game before, as counsellors. 374 \ 00:53:19.680 --> 00:53:26.919 \ Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: You can have some rudimentary mistakes made. People are not going to be able to, organize stuff. 375 \ 00:53:27.220 --> 00:53:32.199 \ Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: Without the local authority actually and holding them at the same time. 376 \ 00:53:32.250 --> 00:53:51.609 \ Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: So there's a lot of things that don't make sense in relation to this particular program that the government is pushing on this particular agenda. And unfortunately, my concern is that the money that is going into this, which is very laudable, may be wasted, and that's my real concern about the Pride in Place program. 377 \ 00:53:52.710 --> 00:53:57.760 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Thank you for that. Is it… is it now launched? Is it live yet, this program? 378 \ 00:53:59.870 --> 00:54:01.360 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: You're muted, Alan. 379 \ 00:54:01.360 --> 00:54:04.309 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Yes, the… There was a whole… 380 \ 00:54:04.500 --> 00:54:09.319 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Bunch of areas, large areas, approved 381 \ 00:54:09.960 --> 00:54:16.790 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): in the last spring. Actually, a few of them even started on the previous Conservative government. 382 \ 00:54:17.560 --> 00:54:23.160 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And they are… Already at the stage of… 383 \ 00:54:23.870 --> 00:54:32.450 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Having neighbourhood boards approved are now submitting plans to government for their first year. 384 \ 00:54:32.740 --> 00:54:45.940 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): The new ones that were listed in September, which came when lots of people pointed out that there are some really deprived areas, but inside quite a rich area. 385 \ 00:54:46.250 --> 00:54:51.690 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): So they did an exercise to name the small ones. We have until… 386 \ 00:54:52.190 --> 00:55:02.979 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): a date in June to set up the neighbourhood boards. The plans to be for… the project plans for first year have to go to 387 \ 00:55:03.230 --> 00:55:15.910 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): government ministry by late November, to then be approved for spending starting the 20… basically the following financial year. 388 \ 00:55:16.510 --> 00:55:19.580 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And, in our area. 389 \ 00:55:22.300 --> 00:55:35.020 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): I know that the local councillors who met when it first came out were incredibly confused by the lack of guidance. Now this has come out, it's more or less the officers who've got to deal with it. 390 \ 00:55:35.130 --> 00:55:41.960 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And, yes, the MP said, yes, She wants… 391 \ 00:55:42.610 --> 00:55:53.139 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): us involved in that group. In fact, she was hoping to set up some meetings, including the parish councils, but we've actually set one up already. 392 \ 00:55:53.630 --> 00:56:01.590 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): on the 31st of January as part of our neighbourhood plan. So, to a certain extent. 393 \ 00:56:02.240 --> 00:56:06.720 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): The people in the District Council are also puzzled by this. 394 \ 00:56:08.770 --> 00:56:14.840 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Question in the chat, David. All these members are neighbourhood Boards, so they're all volunteers, are they? 395 \ 00:56:15.380 --> 00:56:17.010 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): They're overvalued tears. 396 \ 00:56:17.050 --> 00:56:20.580 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: The chair is meant to be unpaid. 397 \ 00:56:20.590 --> 00:56:25.429 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): But unless they can't do it otherwise, then there can be expenses. 398 \ 00:56:25.800 --> 00:56:30.439 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): However… The neighbourhood boards can employ people. 399 \ 00:56:30.610 --> 00:56:31.850 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Right, okay. 400 \ 00:56:32.120 --> 00:56:39.310 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): So, they can employ people directly, or they can pay another organization to… 401 \ 00:56:39.850 --> 00:56:42.480 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Have staff to work on their behalf. 402 \ 00:56:42.700 --> 00:56:43.380 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Okay. 403 \ 00:56:43.380 --> 00:56:46.100 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Typically, so if you have a… 404 \ 00:56:46.340 --> 00:56:57.350 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): well-organized community organized association or something, who already have staff, then the neighborhood board could pay for them to do it. In fact, in the early stages. 405 \ 00:56:57.690 --> 00:57:09.070 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): They say, typically, the district authority will have staff who act as a secretariat, but it could be a local organization. 406 \ 00:57:10.060 --> 00:57:18.040 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: One of the issues from my own background is that there isn't a professional association for people that do community-based regeneration. 407 \ 00:57:18.430 --> 00:57:24.550 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And so if you wanted to try and find people to be paid to do stuff, it's not as easy as it might otherwise be. 408 \ 00:57:24.590 --> 00:57:28.630 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Interesting. I mean, the British Urban Regeneration Association, I don't think it had. 409 \ 00:57:28.690 --> 00:57:31.430 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: A big element of that, but it's folded anyway. 410 \ 00:57:31.610 --> 00:57:34.379 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Amy, Amy, you've got your hand up. 411 \ 00:57:35.600 --> 00:57:52.979 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: Yeah, thank you. Thanks for shouting out the, report, and I'll put a link to the chat, if it's not in there already, to the report in the chat. Yeah, no, it's just, it's unfortunate to hear some of the, kind of, negative, words that have been said to describe the situation, so I just noted, some of them, like. 412 \ 00:57:53.060 --> 00:58:05.760 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: ignorance, exclusion, deprivation, you know, ignored, uncoordinated, and things like that. And I think, there's a real opportunity to kind of, think about things from a more. 413 \ 00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:15.209 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: positive and, like, value-based approach as well. And so I think one of the things that I have been doing recently is trying to, like. 414 \ 00:58:15.210 --> 00:58:34.549 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: I was actually looking at the value of the voluntary community and social enterprise sector, in terms of, like, how is, value understood, and how is it measured, what are the kind of measurement frameworks to support different value types, and what are the things that are often ignored or sidelined, and also, like, what's the shadow value of things that are not necessarily, 415 \ 00:58:34.630 --> 00:58:50.619 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: captured in the kind of, you know, data sets, effectively. And so, one of the things, obviously, as you know, like, as volunteers, like, your own personal well-being can sometimes, be overshadowed, and the expectation to do more with less, and those kind of things. So I think 416 \ 00:58:50.620 --> 00:58:59.520 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: By looking at, kind of, like, what value is being generated, from a kind of quite comprehensive way, it can kind of, like. 417 \ 00:58:59.590 --> 00:59:08.699 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: you know, draw attention to, you know, the importance of people in the middle of all of this. And I think, you know, rather than… 418 \ 00:59:08.750 --> 00:59:22.559 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: create these… I mean, as Dan said, you know, neighbourhood forums in urban areas where there haven't been town and parish councils have been effective to kind of, you know, be a governance, body, not necessarily the same as a town and parish council, because they require, like, 21 419 \ 00:59:22.620 --> 00:59:26.019 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: people, like, for instance, in the context of the neighborhood plan. 420 \ 00:59:26.020 --> 00:59:45.169 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: But, you know, as Andrew said, there have been examples like Queens Park where new community councils or parish councils have been created, and I think what could work really well is if, rather than creating necessarily, like, a new governance structure, is if you could kind of replicate what is already proven to work. 421 \ 00:59:45.170 --> 00:59:53.210 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: the town and parish council, model, and then co-opt into that, voluntary groups and, and kind of those other, other groups, so… 422 \ 00:59:53.370 --> 01:00:05.750 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: becomes still part of government. You're not kind of dismantling the architecture of local democracy. So, that's just kind of what I wanted to say, but I think, you know, there are ways to still achieve these goals of 423 \ 01:00:05.750 --> 01:00:23.759 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: of integrating neighbourhood-level governance, it can still work within the existing architecture, just needs to be made more visible, and it also needs to be better resourced. And, for instance, one of the things I found very frustrating working on neighbourhood plans is that, you know, when you're working on a neighbourhood plan, the policy has to be about 424 \ 01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:30.649 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: plan making, and related to plan making, but there's all these, like, action points, that have to kind of almost be appended, which are absolutely 425 \ 01:00:31.280 --> 01:00:47.069 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: central side of things, the community, ambition for neighbourhood plans, and it's… that is actually, in a way, one of the most fundamental, priorities for the community. And so that needs to be resourced in a much more innovative 426 \ 01:00:47.450 --> 01:00:53.370 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: Creative way between the neighbourhood has been, you know, dismantled from the way that it previously was. 427 \ 01:00:53.400 --> 01:01:13.029 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: So I think it's an opportunity to think about community wealth building, it's an opportunity to think about, participation, from what… from a kind of, you know, what already works, and kind of thinking about what is the actual value that is created, for the people who, you know, live and breathe community. And not everybody's going to step up to the plate to kind of 428 \ 01:01:13.030 --> 01:01:20.260 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: Fill the gap, and if it is, you know, it might just be other people wearing multiple hats, as it often is, you know, working in communities. 429 \ 01:01:20.260 --> 01:01:38.209 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: And also, there's a real risk, and it's a new safeguard, to make sure, that these new spaces don't get politicized, or kind of, you know, captured by interests, that may not always have the community, you know, at heart. So, that's just what I wanted to say. Thanks. 430 \ 01:01:38.740 --> 01:01:57.089 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Oh, thanks. Yes, I mean, there's a certain amount of stuff in the way town parish councils operate now that doesn't exclude political influence, but it does tend to negate the potential for, you know, a Donald Trump kind of takeover by somebody. I think what we're beginning to say collectively, and shout out if I'm wrong, is that 431 \ 01:01:57.090 --> 01:02:02.910 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: We know what… we've got an idea of what may be coming at us, we know what we can already do effectively. 432 \ 01:02:02.930 --> 01:02:15.899 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: It seems to me there needs to be a new appraisal of what actually parish councils may do, and what are the realities of it doing in these new situations. And that's a piece of work which doesn't seem to have been done yet. 433 \ 01:02:15.970 --> 01:02:28.090 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And then there's this issue about capacity building, there's this issue a little bit about resources. One way forward, for parishes, which we're saying to people, is that you can cluster together to do stuff, so you don't have to pay for it all yourself. 434 \ 01:02:28.270 --> 01:02:45.640 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And there's some good examples of that around. And you can actually merge with your neighbouring parish or parishes to create a bigger organization, sharing counsellors, sharing resources, and being more effective in that way. And there's a lot of places around the country that are looking at that, including the place called Katrum in Surrey, where I went to school. 435 \ 01:02:45.640 --> 01:02:58.749 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: They're looking at combining their two parish councils. So, I think at the local level, you know, on the one hand, we may develop, with the help of NALC and SLCC and other people, an idea of what the new 436 \ 01:02:58.940 --> 01:03:16.090 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: world for parenting parish councils might be, but then we have to, as I think you're alluding to, Amy, not everybody's going to jump… jump at it straight away. There has to be a process of thinking about it, and some councils will have to… will not want to come involved. Some councils will need to 437 \ 01:03:16.310 --> 01:03:34.360 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: merger of the councils to achieve it, and so forth. It's actually quite a big, big thing, but if we're not careful, and again, bearing in mind what, Alan was saying, that if we don't have some time spent on this, there's a danger when decisions are being made by people somewhat more randomly, and finances get wasted, and so forth. 438 \ 01:03:34.430 --> 01:03:43.139 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, it strikes me that there are so many other things that we've been saying today that needs to be pulled together, and there needs to be a debate within the sector about. 439 \ 01:03:43.140 --> 01:03:45.549 \ David Michael Cuthbert: How this goes forward, in terms of what. 440 \ 01:03:45.710 --> 01:03:55.179 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: We think it can be done, and how we want it to be done, but we don't… we know we're not going to get more money from government to do it, so we have to think about resources as well as… as well as, 441 \ 01:03:55.700 --> 01:03:57.000 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: and joint working. 442 \ 01:03:58.260 --> 01:04:01.719 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, I mean, that's… that's my take from today. Alan, you've got your hand up, right? 443 \ 01:04:01.720 --> 01:04:10.849 \ Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: Yeah, if I could just add in relation to the Pride in place, I'm 100% behind the idea in relation to the well-being input that's going to take place with this. 444 \ 01:04:10.890 --> 01:04:22.059 \ Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: It's the materialization of that. That's my real concern, that, this will not actually materialize unless these people actually gel. 445 \ 01:04:22.060 --> 01:04:38.680 \ Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: to pull it in the right direction, and it would be an exercise in futility otherwise. That's my real concern. And the localities in which this money is being spent, invariably the people that are involved in that area 446 \ 01:04:38.720 --> 01:04:42.789 \ Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: Have very little, local groups. 447 \ 01:04:43.010 --> 01:05:01.849 \ Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: Other than parent groups for the children going to school, and very few other types of, social grouping. And that's the real concern for me, that, this will be wasted, rather than actually being… come to something really useful for them. 448 \ 01:05:03.300 --> 01:05:13.329 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And it's great to have people, academics like Amy are able to put some time into thinking around this as well. I think we do need… we do need, to put together 449 \ 01:05:14.120 --> 01:05:25.200 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: something that makes sense, and then see about how we can get that established in the government and civil servicings. David, you've got the hand up again, and then it's Sue. David, first. 450 \ 01:05:25.980 --> 01:05:29.600 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Yeah, I don't have that worry where I am. 451 \ 01:05:31.110 --> 01:05:31.820 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Which words? 452 \ 01:05:31.820 --> 01:05:32.320 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Nope. 453 \ 01:05:32.760 --> 01:05:44.429 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): The one just mentioned. The… we actually have lots of active community projects and community groups. Only half as many as we're used to, but there's still a lot. 454 \ 01:05:44.530 --> 01:05:56.000 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): So, and we're in Oxford, so there's plenty of expertise, even in this corner of Oxford. So I don't see that as a problem. I would be more worried about 455 \ 01:05:56.440 --> 01:06:04.800 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): Lack of… Structure or models on how to get going. 456 \ 01:06:05.110 --> 01:06:05.650 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Right. 457 \ 01:06:05.840 --> 01:06:09.840 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): And, and that is maybe models of 458 \ 01:06:10.550 --> 01:06:21.849 \ David Newman (CEN, Blackbird Leys PC): You know, are there things from grassroots regeneration that we should all be learning and looking at, and all the people being taught right at the beginning? 459 \ 01:06:26.990 --> 01:06:40.429 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: I published a book on this at 2017, but the publishers have put the price up to something ridiculous now, so I can't… I can't encourage you necessarily to buy it, but you're absolutely right. People need a pathway to follow, don't they? Sue! Sue Burton. 460 \ 01:06:40.430 --> 01:06:57.839 \ Sue Burton Battle TC East Sussex: Yeah, thank you. So, it's very, sort of, fragmented comments that are little bits of what we've heard today. I totally agree that there's a lack of knowledge about what town and parish councils do, but of course. 461 \ 01:06:57.840 --> 01:07:07.230 \ Sue Burton Battle TC East Sussex: It's not under… it's not surprising when you've got a little parish with a clerk and… very part-time clerk and a few councillors. 462 \ 01:07:07.230 --> 01:07:23.840 \ Sue Burton Battle TC East Sussex: And they meet every 2 or 3 months. And then you've got another parish, which is, Becks Hill is near me, and that's 45,000 people, and that's another town… that's a town council. But it's basically fundamentally the same, so I do think 463 \ 01:07:23.840 --> 01:07:42.650 \ Sue Burton Battle TC East Sussex: That it's not surprising this difference of size and what they actually do varies so much that there is a bit of a muddle on that, and we maybe need to try and think around how we can get around that, and come over as 464 \ 01:07:43.120 --> 01:07:51.260 \ Sue Burton Battle TC East Sussex: You know, professional, knowledgeable link with the community, the grassroots stuff that we actually do. 465 \ 01:07:51.410 --> 01:08:08.559 \ Sue Burton Battle TC East Sussex: My particular parish, 7,000, we've got a neighbourhood plan, which we've had for some time. We have quite a lot of, estate, so that there's quite a lot of work going on within the parish. And… 466 \ 01:08:08.920 --> 01:08:25.620 \ Sue Burton Battle TC East Sussex: It's about what we can offer is certainly taking over other services, if they're given to us, and two, we are the contact with the community, because even though you've got the Neighbourhood Area Committee. 467 \ 01:08:25.620 --> 01:08:36.480 \ Sue Burton Battle TC East Sussex: That's 30,000 people. How are they gonna… how are we gonna get the not… the feedback of what our residents feel about things? Because 468 \ 01:08:37.080 --> 01:08:53.400 \ Sue Burton Battle TC East Sussex: It's for them. It isn't done to, it's got to be done with, and if we don't ask them, and the parish and the town council is the way of asking and getting their input. So… 469 \ 01:08:54.189 --> 01:09:02.530 \ Sue Burton Battle TC East Sussex: I think we've got to do a lot of work on publicity, and talking, and… and talking, moving forward. 470 \ 01:09:02.529 --> 01:09:14.529 \ Sue Burton Battle TC East Sussex: trying to… it feels like a right old muddle, personally. You know, you've got the unitary doing one thing, and then some areas have got the neighbourhood board, some haven't. 471 \ 01:09:14.529 --> 01:09:23.500 \ Sue Burton Battle TC East Sussex: it doesn't feel like we're in a good place. I don't know who we talk to, to try and make 472 \ 01:09:23.540 --> 01:09:34.139 \ Sue Burton Battle TC East Sussex: our role, which I'm sure could be significant and very valuable, how we can get that on the pieces of paper that say what's going to happen. 473 \ 01:09:35.510 --> 01:09:44.920 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Thank you so much for that, Sue. And I think having a plan or a structure or potential structure that reflects that some parishes are quite small and some aren't. 474 \ 01:09:44.920 --> 01:09:55.599 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: It makes… that needs to be in there somewhere, doesn't it? My own conviction is that there needs to be such a document, there needs to be something that we say, this is where we think it should best work. 475 \ 01:09:55.820 --> 01:10:09.529 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And so then we've all got something we can get behind in saying, right, now this is… this is the answer, surely. A bit of work from now to decide exactly what that contains, and I'll certainly speak back to NULC and SLCC after this meeting about that. 476 \ 01:10:10.190 --> 01:10:22.430 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: But then I think we need… then there needs to be a process. My sense is that there's a lot of people out there that need… need to be persuaded about this. It's not just politicians, it's not just civil servants, it's a whole bunch of people. 477 \ 01:10:22.430 --> 01:10:35.520 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: I did meet a civil servant, a junior civil servant at the SLC conference, and asked them, you know, who do we speak to about this stuff? He said, oh, give me an email, I'll let you know. I emailed him, of course, I'd never heard back. I think Sir Humphrey must have sat on him, yeah. 478 \ 01:10:35.580 --> 01:10:36.850 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Alex? 479 \ 01:10:37.550 --> 01:10:40.039 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: I'm just re-thinking, as well. 480 \ 01:10:40.090 --> 01:10:55.140 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: In Hertfordshire, where they've started… where the places where they're boroughs and they've got no town and parish councils have started to ask… consult with residents and say, do you want a parish council? And the residents are saying no, because they don't want to pay extra tax. 481 \ 01:10:55.180 --> 01:11:12.149 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: So… but it sounds like when you… you were talking at the beginning of the meeting that there's another way of doing it, which is a petition. I don't know how big that petition has to be, but it sounds like the sector needs to know that there's not… there's two ways of doing it, or the government… or the government should be encouraged to just… 482 \ 01:11:12.210 --> 01:11:16.989 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: Create these councils without consulting people, because… 483 \ 01:11:17.060 --> 01:11:28.050 \ Alex Daar Hertford PC Hertfordshire: I mean, that doesn't sound very democratic, but I mean, those of us who are in town and parish councils really appreciate having them. It's when it centers around a matter of tax that it becomes difficult. 484 \ 01:11:28.670 --> 01:11:34.039 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Yeah, there is a procedure. I've got it in the document I've put in the chat. 485 \ 01:11:34.210 --> 01:11:40.080 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: draft discussion document, there's a link to the relevant legislation that supports it. 486 \ 01:11:40.080 --> 01:11:57.799 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And, yeah, I think beyond a certain level of people interested, the District Council has to take it on board and do something about it. I think there's a level above which there has to be a response. It doesn't mean that they can't have a response below that level. That's my… but I'm not… 487 \ 01:11:57.870 --> 01:12:09.539 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: been personally in touch with anybody who's actually done this, so, I'm only working from the paperwork here. But it is happening, lots of places are doing it, and places are thinking about merging. 488 \ 01:12:09.630 --> 01:12:19.320 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: You know, on the whole, we have all the powers we might need, but I think the point is about the structure and how the action might operate in practice. 489 \ 01:12:20.040 --> 01:12:20.760 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Yep. 490 \ 01:12:21.480 --> 01:12:22.170 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Good. 491 \ 01:12:23.620 --> 01:12:36.350 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Well, we've had a good old chew at this, ladies and gentlemen, which I'm delighted about. Anybody's got any thoughts after this meeting, certainly send it through to myself or through to Graham. I've put that draft document in the chat for people to download and have a shifty. 492 \ 01:12:37.050 --> 01:12:44.000 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: In terms of where we go from here, I said I would speak to Nalcan SLCC about this. 493 \ 01:12:44.140 --> 01:12:48.230 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: But somebody needs to write this stuff up. 494 \ 01:12:48.880 --> 01:12:58.239 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Somebody needs to do the work of writing this, preparing… putting some thought into it, and then it gets chewed over by the rest of us, and then we decide if that's what we want to be doing. 495 \ 01:12:59.950 --> 01:13:13.410 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: I'd love to volunteer, but I think there has to be an agreed person that does it. That's my perception. Anybody got any other thoughts about how we might proceed with pulling some of these studs together into a structure? 496 \ 01:13:16.340 --> 01:13:30.869 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: I can potentially help, because I want to… well, I'm working on this topic anyway, so, I've, I've got a few bits of, like, ongoing research about this area, so if I kind of write something up in my perspective and then add it to the mix, but I don't know if it will suit. 497 \ 01:13:31.150 --> 01:13:32.980 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Oh, that'd be brilliant. Thank you very much. 498 \ 01:13:32.980 --> 01:13:34.120 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: council, but yeah. 499 \ 01:13:34.120 --> 01:13:36.399 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Yeah, you and I talked a little bit about this in advance, yeah. 500 \ 01:13:36.700 --> 01:13:40.969 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: My perception, again, is that if we can get something that's 501 \ 01:13:41.560 --> 01:13:49.380 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: fully chewed over, that makes sense in all these different levels, and that now Connect CLCC can both adopt, and then we could give you gas. That's, 502 \ 01:13:50.080 --> 01:13:51.389 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: That's my perception. 503 \ 01:13:52.240 --> 01:13:53.960 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Joy. 504 \ 01:13:54.060 --> 01:13:57.879 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Well, it's not dull, is it? Harriet, you've got your… 505 \ 01:14:00.610 --> 01:14:01.170 \ Allan Wilson Edgmond PC Shropshire: Good account. 506 \ 01:14:01.170 --> 01:14:09.979 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: My perception is that You need to make it weep. Need to make an awful lot of noise. 507 \ 01:14:10.340 --> 01:14:10.760 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Yes. 508 \ 01:14:10.760 --> 01:14:17.949 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: Because the louder you talk, I mean, you just look at the single-issue fanatic groups, and how they manage to… 509 \ 01:14:18.170 --> 01:14:21.930 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: Color and co-opt the media. 510 \ 01:14:22.230 --> 01:14:25.930 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: And actually, with town and parish councils up and down the country. 511 \ 01:14:26.170 --> 01:14:36.919 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: who… I know that there are problems, I know that there are… I mean, I was horrified to read in the chat about the one that's been taken over by a car fanatic and, as a racist chairman. 512 \ 01:14:37.590 --> 01:14:39.590 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: But at least you can get rid of us. 513 \ 01:14:39.980 --> 01:14:45.809 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: you know, we do come up for election, and one of the things that I worry about terribly is 514 \ 01:14:46.480 --> 01:14:50.260 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: What seems to me an increasing deficit of democracy. 515 \ 01:14:50.380 --> 01:14:57.570 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: I mean, I worry about it in charities, I worry about it in special, you know, community interest groups and everything, where. 516 \ 01:14:58.300 --> 01:15:03.220 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: Things are started by well-meaning and really good people. 517 \ 01:15:03.780 --> 01:15:04.660 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: And… 518 \ 01:15:05.410 --> 01:15:15.730 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: They don't think about succession, and they don't think about who's going to take over, and everything just dies when they lose interest, or whatever. 519 \ 01:15:16.090 --> 01:15:18.699 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: So, it's town and parish councils. 520 \ 01:15:18.730 --> 01:15:20.650 \ David Morgan-Jones: Which keep the country going. 521 \ 01:15:21.070 --> 01:15:26.860 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: And unless we can make that, important. 522 \ 01:15:27.810 --> 01:15:34.340 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: An incredibly vital community contribution to the government, local government. 523 \ 01:15:34.620 --> 01:15:40.650 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: I think that's… really sad, and I just don't think that politicians and people 524 \ 01:15:40.770 --> 01:15:56.240 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: who have no idea what goes on in the rest of the country, and have had no external experience out of the public sector, perhaps. And that seems to apply to an awful lot of people in government, and both governments, any government. 525 \ 01:15:57.060 --> 01:16:02.259 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: You need that extra input from people who care about where they live. 526 \ 01:16:02.480 --> 01:16:05.599 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: And who know what's needed in where they live. 527 \ 01:16:05.940 --> 01:16:12.300 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: And who don't have a political axe to grind. They're just working for the benefit of their communities. 528 \ 01:16:12.780 --> 01:16:17.039 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: And I just think that until… pull us… 529 \ 01:16:17.160 --> 01:16:22.059 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: A silent majority get together and get our voices heard. 530 \ 01:16:22.180 --> 01:16:27.110 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: We're not going to win. We're just going to be rolled over by people who've got spreadsheets. 531 \ 01:16:27.450 --> 01:16:28.839 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: I'm no real sense. 532 \ 01:16:29.230 --> 01:16:30.650 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: how things work. 533 \ 01:16:30.940 --> 01:16:31.760 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Absolutely. 534 \ 01:16:32.020 --> 01:16:32.920 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: That's it. 535 \ 01:16:33.150 --> 01:16:33.680 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: I… 536 \ 01:16:33.680 --> 01:16:34.990 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: Sorry, the moon. 537 \ 01:16:34.990 --> 01:16:52.470 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: No, I agree. No, I… the point, I think all I know about campaigning is if you're going to campaign, you're going to need to go in hard from the outset. So I'm actually… I mean, personally, prepared to write to every MP in the land if we've got the right story to send to them. Yeah, you're right, it is… we're looking at a potential campaign, aren't we, to get people to… 538 \ 01:16:53.230 --> 01:17:03.600 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: understand some things which they don't seem to, and… but also to have solutions that fit in with their concerns as well, so that, you know, I'm sure it can be done. David? David Morgan-Jones. 539 \ 01:17:03.980 --> 01:17:12.889 \ David Morgan-Jones: Oh, it's about the previous thing with Amy. If you want another pair of eyes to look at whatever's going to be written, I'm very happy to… 540 \ 01:17:13.120 --> 01:17:17.709 \ David Morgan-Jones: spent a bit of time. It's not an area I know a huge amount about, but I'm quite happy to learn. 541 \ 01:17:19.210 --> 01:17:37.820 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Okay, well, I think that we need to get some stuff together, which then we all have a chew at and comment on. Your comment, David, a couple about should NARC be leading on this? NALC is heavily engaged in this. I work… personally, I work 5 hours a week for SLCC as a 542 \ 01:17:38.020 --> 01:17:49.259 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Environmental and Sustainability Advisor, and I work with NALC more as a volunteer, but I have got a very close connection with Chris Borg, the policy manager there. 543 \ 01:17:49.490 --> 01:18:03.969 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: I think the thing is about, NALT certainly needs to be engaged in this process big time, and if we can get something that we collectively as a sector think makes sense, and that NELC is happy to, then, 544 \ 01:18:04.180 --> 01:18:10.899 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: take point on working on this with government, and that's also fine. So we will see how we get, 545 \ 01:18:11.440 --> 01:18:13.099 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Go forward with that. 546 \ 01:18:13.900 --> 01:18:15.940 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: I know Nels are busy… 547 \ 01:18:16.160 --> 01:18:29.359 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: they've said they're busy lobbying at members of the House of Lords about the bill at the moment in this current committee stage. Part of that is about putting in things that they already require for town and parish councils, like, for example, hybrid meetings. 548 \ 01:18:29.440 --> 01:18:48.420 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: But I don't… I'm not aware that the… that NELC have got a book of words that we've been talking about, which explains in practice how these things might work, what happens at Town and Parish Council level, how that's supported, how that fits, and whether, if there are neighbourhood Area Committees, how they operate as well. 549 \ 01:18:48.520 --> 01:18:57.950 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Yes, there's going to be regulations coming out from government in due course about these committees, but I, again, feel the sooner we can get our ideas together and get them in there early, the better. 550 \ 01:18:58.150 --> 01:19:04.310 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, I think there is a certain amount of urgency about this. 551 \ 01:19:04.490 --> 01:19:07.250 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Transition towns, 552 \ 01:19:08.300 --> 01:19:24.560 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Transition towns do vary. Some of them are very effective as local groups looking for the future of their places, and some of them tend to be a bit more like talking shops, but I think they are another existing type of organization that can be engaged 553 \ 01:19:24.680 --> 01:19:29.959 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: In terms of parish councils working with their local groups and voluntary groups, transition towns are certainly… 554 \ 01:19:30.140 --> 01:19:32.009 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Certainly one of those, yeah. 555 \ 01:19:34.020 --> 01:19:34.810 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Okay. 556 \ 01:19:35.910 --> 01:19:44.060 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Well, I feel we've had a great hearing and a great discussion, and I think we've got a certain amount of consensus, but there now needs to be a certain amount of work. 557 \ 01:19:44.540 --> 01:19:51.440 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And, so, we'll… I will feed back to both NUC and SLCC what we've talked about today. 558 \ 01:19:51.680 --> 01:20:09.149 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And Amy volunteered to get engaged, and Graham's just put his hand in the air, and so has David. So, all of a sudden, we've got a little working group before we know where we are, which is brilliant. And we, we've just been… you've just been photobombed. 559 \ 01:20:09.910 --> 01:20:17.680 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: There's a cat just worn across your screen, there you go. Andrew, just be photobombed by your cat again. 560 \ 01:20:17.680 --> 01:20:19.810 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: It's actually volunteering, Andrew. 561 \ 01:20:19.810 --> 01:20:39.170 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Oh, is that right? So we have… we have the cat as well, so, right. So we've got the core of a group to get forward, so what I could say… I could say to NAV and SLCC, yep, we think there's some work to be done here, and we have some people prepared to… to get some work, you know, get… put some words on… on paper about this. What are you written? 562 \ 01:20:39.220 --> 01:20:42.650 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, if we're happy to say that, I'm certainly happy to say that. 563 \ 01:20:43.080 --> 01:20:48.280 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And it is an opportunity, it seems to me, particularly if this bill is going to become law by Easter. 564 \ 01:20:48.400 --> 01:20:58.609 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: you know, people are probably trying to draft these regulations for neighbourhood area committees already, and there are pilots going around there. So I think the sooner we get our allure in, the better. Absolutely. 565 \ 01:20:59.810 --> 01:21:00.790 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Right. 566 \ 01:21:01.040 --> 01:21:19.260 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Well, let me just say a public thank you, Andrew, for you for putting together this presentation. It was clearly urgently needed, and clearly it's gone down very well, so thank you very much. And for anyone who wants to know about next week, we are going to have another Linda Aspe session, and those of you who've been to Linda's session before will know they are 567 \ 01:21:19.280 --> 01:21:24.770 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Very powerful and very moving, and I recommend you all give us a try. So thank you for your trouble. 568 \ 01:21:26.470 --> 01:21:26.830 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Okay. 569 \ 01:21:26.830 --> 01:21:27.530 \ David Morgan-Jones: Thank you very much. 570 \ 01:21:27.530 --> 01:21:31.120 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Thank you, Harriet, for your offer as well. Great. 571 \ 01:21:32.550 --> 01:21:46.059 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: I've just… on a bit of a personal note, I've just had an email from my son's school saying that he's going to go and read his poem at the Houses of Parliament, so it's quite exciting. Maybe he can make one about DBAs. While he's there, yeah. 572 \ 01:21:46.100 --> 01:21:46.850 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: She is. 573 \ 01:21:46.850 --> 01:21:50.650 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: As my mother says, you know. 574 \ 01:21:51.050 --> 01:21:52.170 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: attention! 575 \ 01:21:53.290 --> 01:21:55.180 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Here's a poem that I wrote, yeah. 576 \ 01:21:55.180 --> 01:21:56.959 \ David Morgan-Jones: Great, great. 577 \ 01:21:56.960 --> 01:21:58.770 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: stuff. Great, great, great news. 578 \ 01:21:58.980 --> 01:22:05.179 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: We're winning. We're getting there. We will get there. Thank you again, David, for your points as well, because… 579 \ 01:22:05.330 --> 01:22:12.380 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: there are some things that need to be pulled together here. Harriet, you probably know Graeme, do you, from meetings and such? 580 \ 01:22:12.380 --> 01:22:15.150 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: Oh, yes. 581 \ 01:22:15.150 --> 01:22:20.289 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Well, I hope you two play nice together, but we'll say no more about it. 582 \ 01:22:20.290 --> 01:22:31.730 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: We play very nicely together, thank you. But I think we both feel as… well, Graham's got the experience and the knowledge and the capacity to put words down in… 583 \ 01:22:31.930 --> 01:22:38.170 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: glowing terms, I just basically follow along behind him, going quack, quack, quack. 584 \ 01:22:38.820 --> 01:22:40.870 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Well, you've got the passion, Parrot, haven't you? 585 \ 01:22:40.870 --> 01:22:43.240 \ Harriet Brabazon, Bembridge PC: Yeah, I mined. I really mind. 586 \ 01:22:43.240 --> 01:22:46.329 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Exactly. That, that, that's, that's, that's vital. 587 \ 01:22:47.030 --> 01:22:53.790 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: And there's Andrew from Martok, where my grandparents lived for a long time, and I haven't been to Martok for a long time, so it's my fault, not yours. 588 \ 01:22:54.120 --> 01:22:55.180 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: There you go. 589 \ 01:22:55.490 --> 01:22:57.860 \ Andrew Clegg, Martock, Somerset: They've just sold the church. 590 \ 01:22:58.580 --> 01:22:59.030 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Yeah. 591 \ 01:22:59.030 --> 01:23:01.120 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: what the, the, the RC Church. 592 \ 01:23:01.120 --> 01:23:04.079 \ Andrew Clegg, Martock, Somerset: Yes, or it's on sale at the moment. 593 \ 01:23:04.490 --> 01:23:05.630 \ Andrew Clegg, Martock, Somerset: It's very sad. 594 \ 01:23:05.760 --> 01:23:10.530 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: It is sad, yeah. The last I heard that, there was actually a minister there again. This is a… 595 \ 01:23:10.530 --> 01:23:11.289 \ Andrew Clegg, Martock, Somerset: Yeah, it's very… 596 \ 01:23:11.290 --> 01:23:11.970 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Hello, boop. 597 \ 01:23:11.970 --> 01:23:13.190 \ Andrew Clegg, Martock, Somerset: Very recent. 598 \ 01:23:13.470 --> 01:23:21.940 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: suburb of Marta called Bowerhinton, and my grandfather was minister there twice, actually, in the 40s and 50s. He was there in the war. 599 \ 01:23:22.560 --> 01:23:25.469 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Yeah, it is sad, yeah. 600 \ 01:23:25.680 --> 01:23:37.069 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: The last time we went there, a few years back, I think it was my grandmother's memorial service, the three… her three sons went round the back of the church to find out where they could… where they could still find where the old air raid shelter used to be. 601 \ 01:23:37.300 --> 01:23:40.050 \ Andrew Clegg, Martock, Somerset: Oh, really? Yeah. 602 \ 01:23:40.050 --> 01:23:51.840 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So there's obviously a hole in the ground at the back of church there. And I think that's my earliest memory of being taken by my… I was brought up in the West Indies, picked up by my father, and taken to show a water barrel with ice on the top, and I remember that very well 603 \ 01:23:52.820 --> 01:23:55.059 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: possibly my earliest ever memory as Marta. 604 \ 01:23:56.000 --> 01:23:57.290 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Oh, gosh, well… 605 \ 01:23:57.610 --> 01:23:58.100 \ Andrew Clegg, Martock, Somerset: Yeah. 606 \ 01:23:58.810 --> 01:24:00.970 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: So, sad, sad. 607 \ 01:24:01.760 --> 01:24:11.260 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Yeah, no, they've had ups and downs with having ministers. Like many churches, of course, difficult to find a minister of religion. It's been a shortage generally. 608 \ 01:24:11.850 --> 01:24:16.400 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: We're just getting a new vicar in our village in Mitcheredan, so I've got a candidate. Not me. 609 \ 01:24:19.260 --> 01:24:24.299 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Thank you for that, Andrew. Yeah, I should… I should… I haven't been down for a while, I should cut mine. 610 \ 01:24:24.790 --> 01:24:25.500 \ Amy Burnett - Middlesex University/LPIP: Hmm. 611 \ 01:24:25.500 --> 01:24:34.070 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: to go up to the, the Monty Mute. We couldn't say Monty Mute when we were little. I used to love rolling, rolling sideways down the… 612 \ 01:24:34.070 --> 01:24:35.830 \ Andrew Clegg, Martock, Somerset: Yeah. 613 \ 01:24:36.350 --> 01:24:38.070 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: The multimed, there you go. 614 \ 01:24:39.210 --> 01:24:50.480 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Great stuff. Well, we've got… we've got a… we've got a plan, we've got an idea, we've got a way forward, we know what we're going to be doing, so I think that's a great outcome from today's session. Brilliant. 615 \ 01:24:50.890 --> 01:24:52.350 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Thank you all very much. 616 \ 01:24:52.700 --> 01:24:53.580 \ Andrew Maliphant, Great Collaboration: Cheers, Graham. 617 \ 01:24:53.580 --> 01:24:54.539 \ Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: I heard. 618 \ 01:24:54.540 --> 01:24:55.090 \ Andrew Clegg, Martock, Somerset: M. *** ### Markdown copy of the presentation: ## **ENGLISH DEVOLUTION AND COMMUNITY EMPOWERMENT BILL** #### *What About The Role Of Town and Parish Councils?* *Image courtesy Hilton PC* *** ### **In Summary** English devolution plans, driven by the **English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill**, aim to shift power to local areas through new **Strategic Authorities**, giving **metro mayors** more powers over planning, transport, and economic growth, while introducing neighbourhood governance for community input and moving towards unitary councils to streamline services and boost local control, though concerns remain about central government influence. *** ### **The Government says…** > “The English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill will deliver on the government’s commitment to widen and deepen devolution across England, providing Mayors with unprecedented powers to deliver growth. The Bill will support the government’s plan to rebuild and reform local government, as the foundation for devolution, and give communities stronger tools to shape their local areas.” More information at:\ *** ### **The Local Government Association has said…** > “The legislation as currently drafted is in danger of not delivering on its own core ambition through lack of clarity around how strategic authorities (SAs) will work with councils… The success of SAs relies on councils, communities, and public services working together with mayors in true partnership.” More at:\ *** ### **Clause 60 — Local authorities: effective neighbourhood governance** **(1)** Local authorities in England must make appropriate arrangements to secure the effective governance of any *neighbourhood area*. **(2)** “Appropriate arrangements” are to be set out in regulations made by the Secretary of State. > *(Neighbourhood area committees are being piloted in Surrey.)* **No draft regulations yet** Regulations **may include provision for**: * establishment of organisational structures * membership, funding and review * functions delegated to neighbourhood structures * local engagement requirements **Notably:** *Parish and town councils are not being treated as local authorities.* Definition here of “local authority” = * county council * district council * London borough council *** ### **The new areas for devolution are responding** Example (Norfolk proposal): * “Neighbourhood Areas” = **30,000–50,000 population** * Committees including: * elected representatives * parish & town councils * statutory services * VCSE groups * police & health * residents’ associations * business groups Committees expected to be **consultative**, with **very broad agendas**. *** ### **What does the Bill say about parish councils?** Relevant extracts: * **Assets of community value** * **Preferred community buyer** * **Councillor definitions** Example: > **86D(2)** — community nomination may be made by a **parish council**\ > **86N(4)** — parish councils count as “nominating community groups”\ > **86Q(7)** — defines “councillor” to include members of parish councils *** ### **Response to questions from peers (8.12.25)** > “The Government value the role that town and parish councils play… There are no plans to abolish… Parish councils will be an important partner…” Local authorities retain control over whether **new parish councils** are created. *** ### **Some points already raised — Existing council powers** * Parish councils already manage assets, buildings and land * Many act under **Section 101, Local Government Act 1972** * Neighbourhood planning exists and could be expanded * Risks of **loss of local identity** under wider devolution (e.g. Cheltenham, Winchester) There is believed to be **data availability** on: * populations of adopted Neighbourhood Plan areas * hectarage / mapped boundaries This could be strong evidence for **practical scale** at local tier. *** ### **More parish councils** Communities can petition for creation of a parish council via a **Community Governance Review**. This becomes more relevant under new **unitary authorities**, including urban areas. A petition compels the unitary to consider the proposal. *** ### **Power of Competence** Questions raised about enabling smaller parishes: > Consider a **CiLCA Lite** for councils under \~3,000 population. Power of Competence would unlock **community energy projects**, but the Bill currently gives competence to **strategic authorities**, not parishes. *** ### **NALC and SLCC** Both bodies tracking the Bill. * **NALC** lobbying amendments (standards, remote meetings, neighbourhood governance, funding) * **SLCC** reporting that: > “There would be absolutely no funds from Government for town and parish councils.” *** ### **Climate responsibilities** Responsibility sits at **strategic authority** level,\ but **delivery happens locally**. *** ### **Another straw in the wind… (Pride in Place)** * Government’s **Pride in Place** programme uses **Neighbourhood Boards** * Parish councillors **cannot chair** these boards, but may sit on them * Government encourages handing over programme control by **year 3** * That handover *may include parish councils* *Image courtesy Amy Burnett* *** ### **The Future of Local Democracy – Report (Dec 2025)** Published by Birmingham University: > “Town and parish councils are essential place-based, locally-driven institutions…” Recommendations include: * invest in supporting local tier * capacity building * recognise innovation * invest in digital / AI pathways * encourage democratic participation in orders/standing orders *** ### **One suggestion for discussion** A **tiered separation of duties** under devolution: 1. **Strategic level:** strategic decisions 2. **Planning level:** Local Plans & policy 3. **Local level:** neighbourhood plans & project delivery Threads joining all three: * strategic alignment * co-ordinated funding & community effort * adequate skills & capacity > Key question: **How to persuade Government to take parishes seriously?** *** *** --- # Agent Instructions: Querying This Documentation If you need additional information that is not directly available in this page, you can query the documentation dynamically by asking a question. Perform an HTTP GET request on the current page URL with the `ask` query parameter: ``` GET https://wiki.greatcollaboration.uk/knowledgebase/events/banter-sessions-inc-table-of-all-sessions/banter-102-14jan26-devolution-and-parish-councils-with-andrew-maliphant.md?ask= ``` The question should be specific, self-contained, and written in natural language. The response will contain a direct answer to the question and relevant excerpts and sources from the documentation. Use this mechanism when the answer is not explicitly present in the current page, you need clarification or additional context, or you want to retrieve related documentation sections.