Banter 105: 04Feb26 Fermentation with Sandor Katz
All food can be fermented, which improves storage, storage life, supplements the body's microbiome, improves human biodiversity, reduces waste. Sandor educated, and banished some major myths
The first 30 minutes of this session provide a splendid introduction to Fermentation, including its very long history (think alcohol, bread) and its applicability to all our food. This is an education, and thoroughly recommended to anyone who wishes to learn about the topic. Sandor also points out the applicability of fermentation at community level as well as individuals, for food resilience and sustainability using local produce; and he includes a three-minute description of what to do to get started on your very first product, at min:sec 50:25 in the video
Video Timeline: (min:sec)
00:00 - 19:02 Presentation
19:02 - 50:25 First Q & A session
50:25 - 53:44 How to make your own fermentation
53:44 - 64:56 (end( Second Q & A session
Presentation:
No separate slide-deck in this session - the video is the presentation
Books, websites, visits:
To find out much, much more on this topic, visit: http://www.wildfermentation.com/
Sandor has also written several books on the subject: please see https://www.wildfermentation.com/which-book/
And finally, his next UK visits in 2026:
Whitchurch, Shropshire June 19 - 21: https://the-rare.co.uk/school/#the-art-of-fermentation
He will also be doing additional, shorter events in London, Somerset and Cornwall - check his website for details as they are finalised: http://www.wildfermentation.com/
Meeting Summary:
Feb 04, 2026 11:50 AM London ID: 834 5460 8536
Quick recap
Sandor Katz, a fermentation expert, presented on the fundamental aspects of fermentation and its global applications in food production, sharing his personal journey and addressing common misconceptions about bacteria and their role in human health. The discussion concluded with conversations about local food production, biodiversity, and waste management, including potential applications of fermentation in converting waste materials into useful resources, and plans for future workshops and presentations.
Summary
Participant Introductions and Logistics
Graham expressed gratitude to Sandor for joining from Tennessee, despite the early hour for him.
Understanding Fermentation: A Global Process
Sandor Katz, a fermentation expert, discussed the fundamental aspects of fermentation, highlighting its role in transforming microorganisms and its historical significance. He explained that fermentation is a process used globally to produce a wide range of foods and beverages, from bread and cheese to pickles and chocolate, and emphasized its safety and health benefits. Sandor shared his personal journey into fermentation, starting with a love for pickles and leading to his career as an author and educator, and addressed common misconceptions about bacteria, emphasizing their importance in human health and digestion.
Local Food Production and Biodiversity
Sandor discussed the importance of local food production and preservation methods, highlighting the role of fermentation in extending food life and the need to simplify regulations for small producers. He also touched on the diminishing biodiversity in our guts due to chemical exposure and a lack of dietary fibre, emphasizing the need for a more diverse diet. Graham appreciated Sandor's insights on biodiversity, linking it to broader discussions on biodiversity net gain. Stuart raised concerns about the rise of urban hydroponic farms, questioning their benefits compared to soil-grown produce, to which Sandor responded that hydroponics may lack the biodiversity of soil-grown food. Amanda shared her personal journey towards a healthier diet post-cancer treatment, expressing gratitude for the session and her interest in fermentation and gut health. Sandor advised that while fermented foods can improve gut function and immune health, they should not be seen as a cure for major health issues and emphasized the benefits of a simpler, whole foods diet and local food production.
Fermentation Applications and Education
Sandor explained the wide applications of fermentation, including the production of pharmaceuticals and the cleanup of oil spills. Graham proposed using Sandor's video presentation to educate others about fermentation, to which Sandor agreed. Amanda discussed a local council's interest in using fermentation to convert dog waste into useful products, highlighting the potential of fermentation to transform undesirable materials into useful resources.
Community Composting Initiatives
Sandor explained the natural breakdown process of animal excrement through composting, emphasizing the importance of mixing different organic materials to accelerate decomposition. Amanda suggested exploring circular economy practices at the parish council level, such as composting or wormery systems, to reduce waste and create community benefits. Sandor agreed that collective efforts are more practical and efficient, noting that larger compost piles generate enough heat to kill pathogens, making the process safer and more effective.
Fermented Foods and Waste Solutions
Sandor discussed the benefits of fermented foods, explaining how they can improve digestion and gut biodiversity. He shared his expertise on fermenting vegetables at home, emphasizing the importance of diversity and moderation. The group also discussed the potential use of human waste as fertilizer, with Stuart and Amanda sharing examples from other countries. David suggested exploring biogas digesters as a way to process waste safely. The conversation ended with a brief discussion about upcoming workshops and a future presentation by Lucy Eccles on community resilience.
Chat:
00:18:26 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: Marmite!
00:24:34 Mike Bundock: sorry I have another meeting so need to go, thanks Sandor, I will watch the recording later, I make Kimchi regularly so very interested in your talk - bye!
00:27:54 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: I'm getting hungry!
00:29:53 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: https://joyofcooking.com/
00:31:42 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: https://www.goodreads.com/author/list/63537.Sandor_Ellix_Katz
00:32:42 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: All very relevant to food security in the UK
00:39:59 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: So more allotments better than more hydroponics - and possibly cheaper too
00:48:19 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nature-security-assessment-on-global-biodiversity-loss-ecosystem-collapse-and-national-security
00:53:49 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: https://www.wildfermentation.com/
00:54:41 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: We have a postgraduate student working with us on guidance around food and local food security
00:55:44 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Sandor’s website all about fermentation: http://www.wildfermentation.com/
00:58:16 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): Biogas digesters on farms.
01:06:33 Amanda Davis: Tesco, for example has significantly increased its range of fermented foods or ingredients to ferment your own
01:10:10 Amanda Davis: Microplastics and PFAS is the problem with human excrement now though
01:10:35 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: Here's a link to Max Cotton's year of only eating what we grow locally - "Food Britannia" https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/m002k38m
01:14:17 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/expert-answers/kombucha-tea/faq-20058126
01:16:06 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: Kvass https://ancestralkitchen.com/2020/11/02/russian-bread-kvass-ancestral-cook-up-november-2020/
01:18:23 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: So many thanks!
01:19:35 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: https://www.wildfermentation.com/events/the-rare-school/
Audio-transcript: (for AI indexing and search)
95 00:13:47.230 --> 00:13:52.289 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: So, whilst we're waiting for the last-minute arrivals, let me just,
96 00:13:52.560 --> 00:14:09.570 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: astonishing you, astonish you with the goodwill of Sandor, who's actually based in Tennessee, so he's 4,000 miles and 5, 6 time zones away from us, so it's just 6 o'clock in the morning his time. So I'm very grateful to him for agreeing to come and
97 00:14:09.860 --> 00:14:14.049 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Open up the, mysteries of fermentation for us.
98 00:14:14.330 --> 00:14:14.950 Mike Bundock: Hmm.
99 00:14:15.090 --> 00:14:19.709 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: And, I hope his coffee is good and strong.
100 00:14:20.920 --> 00:14:25.280 Mike Bundock: Has anybody on this panel so far done any fermentation?
101 00:14:26.920 --> 00:14:27.930 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Great question.
102 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:30.270 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: I've drunk the products, yeah.
103 00:14:31.580 --> 00:14:40.390 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): I've made beer, and I've made wine, and I researched, and I visited rum distilleries for my PhD.
104 00:14:41.170 --> 00:14:42.270 Mike Bundock: Oh, very nice.
105 00:14:42.270 --> 00:14:46.790 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Oh, wow. Okay, David, you're a never-ending list of surprises.
106 00:14:49.640 --> 00:15:05.760 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Well, we're past the magical hour of 5 minutes, so I think it's fair to say that if anyone else wishes to join us, they're going to be a little late. So, Sandor, welcome, and thank you again for your early morning arrival, and we're very, very pleased to see you.
107 00:15:08.020 --> 00:15:22.600 Sandor Katz: Well, I'm, I'm so happy to be here with you this morning, and, you know, it's always, it's always, fun having a reason to wake up. As I, you know, as I'm talking, I expect I'll see the dawn outside my windows.
108 00:15:23.400 --> 00:15:27.380 Sandor Katz: So, okay, I,
109 00:15:28.030 --> 00:15:46.340 Sandor Katz: I like to just start with, you know, the most fundamental question, you know, what is fermentation anyway? You know, I mean, it turns out, you know, virtually every human being on planet Earth consumes products of fermentation every single day.
110 00:15:46.340 --> 00:15:53.659 Sandor Katz: And yet, you know, a lot of people have no idea about this phenomenon, or really what it is.
111 00:15:53.900 --> 00:16:04.650 Sandor Katz: So, you know, broadly speaking, fermentation is the transformative action of microorganisms.
112 00:16:05.210 --> 00:16:22.479 Sandor Katz: You know, it's a little bit more nuanced than that. If you come from a biology background, biologists would define fermentation a little bit differently as anaerobic metabolism, the production of energy without oxygen. I mean, in this sense, the cells of our bodies are capable of fermentation.
113 00:16:22.980 --> 00:16:32.249 Sandor Katz: Most of the foods and beverages that we regard as fermented meet the biologist's definition, but there are a large handful.
114 00:16:32.250 --> 00:16:55.489 Sandor Katz: that require oxygen. So, for instance, vinegar. The reason why alcoholic beverages are always sealed so firmly is because we need to protect them from oxygen, because once they have access to oxygen, there are these bacteria called Acetobacter that will metabolize the alcohol into acetic acid, which is vinegar.
115 00:16:55.640 --> 00:16:58.450 Sandor Katz: You know, the other…
116 00:16:58.880 --> 00:17:11.120 Sandor Katz: The other issue is that not every transformative action of microorganisms results in something delicious that we're ready to put into our mouths, and in fact, most of what we would regard as food spoilage
117 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:35.039 Sandor Katz: involves microorganisms, and, you know, we don't, you know, take the bag of decomposed parsley that we find that was hidden in a drawer in our refrigerator and hold it up and say, oh, look, the parsley fermented. You know, we use a different vocabulary for this. The parsley spoiled, the parsley decomposed, the parsley rotted. And generally, we reserve the word fermentation to describe desirable.
118 00:17:35.040 --> 00:17:38.409 Sandor Katz: Or intentional microbial fermentations.
119 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:52.710 Sandor Katz: But, of course, you know, there is not a full consensus on what is desirable, and so, you know, there are certain fermented foods that can be very polarizing.
120 00:17:52.800 --> 00:18:14.880 Sandor Katz: you know, certain very strong cheeses, for instance, that, you know, some people might consider the most delicious thing in the world, and some other people might be, you know, quite literally disgusted by. You know, so, you know, there's a large subjective component, you know, some of it is cultural, and some of it is just individual.
121 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:18.600 Sandor Katz: But anyway, fermentation is the transformative action of microorganisms.
122 00:18:18.600 --> 00:18:21.179 Sandor Katz: People have been fermenting.
123 00:18:21.210 --> 00:18:45.009 Sandor Katz: you know, according to the archaeological record, at least 10,000 years. You know, I would say actually probably much longer, because that mostly tells us about the history of pottery, because presumably earlier vessels, especially for fermenting alcohol, you know, would have been made out of hollowed-out wood, animal membranes, other things that are fully biodegradable.
124 00:18:45.180 --> 00:19:01.569 Sandor Katz: so, you know, fermentation is, you know, is really ancient, but, you know, there, you know, we did not really have a clear, you know, understanding of what drove the process until.
125 00:19:01.570 --> 00:19:17.259 Sandor Katz: you know, not even 200 years ago, about 175 years ago, Louis Pasteur, a French chemist, you know, really definitively, defined fermentation as the transformative action of microorganisms. And,
126 00:19:17.620 --> 00:19:25.810 Sandor Katz: You know, what we now understand, thanks to the field of microbiology that his research really spawned.
127 00:19:25.810 --> 00:19:38.700 Sandor Katz: You know, is that everything we eat is populated by microorganisms. you know, all the plants, all the animal products that make up our food, so there's a certain inevitability to microbial transformation of our food.
128 00:19:38.700 --> 00:19:47.200 Sandor Katz: And, you know, people in every part of the world, without specifically knowing that, learned techniques to…
129 00:19:47.420 --> 00:19:58.449 Sandor Katz: work with that underlying fact, so that rather than food decomposing into a disgusting, ugly mess, they would somehow harness this invisible life force
130 00:19:58.450 --> 00:20:22.390 Sandor Katz: That's present on all of our food in order to produce alcohol, in order to make food more stable for preservation, in order to make food more digestible, in order to make food less toxic, in order to make food more delicious. So, you know, fermentation is broadly practiced. I mean, you know.
131 00:20:22.390 --> 00:20:43.900 Sandor Katz: Everywhere, everywhere, everywhere in the world, there are ancient traditions of fermentation. And, you know, if we, you know, we think about a, you know, a standard Western diet, you know, whether it's, you know, in the UK, or here in the US, or anywhere in Europe, or many other places.
132 00:20:43.900 --> 00:20:54.360 Sandor Katz: You know, bread, product of fermentation. Cheese, product of fermentation. Cured meats involve fermentation. All of the condiments that we put on our food.
133 00:20:54.360 --> 00:20:59.680 Sandor Katz: You know, the ancient condiments of the world, like fish sauce, like soy sauce.
134 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:24.030 Sandor Katz: You know, these directly involve fermentation, and, you know, most of the rest of our, you know, contemporary condiments, whether it is mustard, whether it is a ketchup, whether it is chutneys, whether it is salsas, whether it is Worcestershire sauce, but they all involve vinegar, which is an important
135 00:21:24.030 --> 00:21:25.939 Sandor Katz: important product of fermentation.
136 00:21:26.070 --> 00:21:42.510 Sandor Katz: Chocolate is fermented, coffee is fermented, certain varieties of tea are fermented, many olives are fermented. Of course, pickles are fermented, sauerkraut, kimchi.
137 00:21:42.510 --> 00:21:58.919 Sandor Katz: You know, so there's a really, you know, vast, vast array of fermented foods and beverages that exist in the world, and, you know, they touch the, you know, the lives, the mouths, the stomachs of, you know, almost every individual everywhere.
138 00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:03.860 Sandor Katz: You know, fermentation goes beyond food.
139 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:14.789 Sandor Katz: you know, compost. You know, the process that, you know, underlies the, you know, sort of maintenance and rebuilding of fertility in the soil.
140 00:22:14.790 --> 00:22:36.890 Sandor Katz: is a fermentation process. It's, you know, microorganisms breaking down, you know, dead plant matter, our food waste, excrement, you know, everything back into, you know, humus that, you know, regenerates the soil.
141 00:22:36.890 --> 00:22:42.410 Sandor Katz: Biofuels, you know, involve, fermentation.
142 00:22:42.410 --> 00:22:57.339 Sandor Katz: Silage, you know, one of the ways that, you know, people in temperate regions, you know, feed their livestock during the winter involves fermentation. So, you know, fermentation has a lot of fiber arts.
143 00:22:57.340 --> 00:23:13.770 Sandor Katz: you know, this word redding, if you're getting the fibers out of a fibrous, stocky plant to create fabric, you know, that involves fermentation. There's, you know, there's many, many applications of fermentation beyond food.
144 00:23:13.860 --> 00:23:23.359 Sandor Katz: There's been some, you know, pronounced revival of interest in fermentation over the last decade or two.
145 00:23:23.360 --> 00:23:46.220 Sandor Katz: You know, I mean, really, our grandparents and their grandparents were eating and drinking just as much, if not more, fermented foods and beverages than people in our time are, but suddenly there's a lot of, you know, interest and attention to this process, and, you know, I would say that, you know, that stems more than anything from
146 00:23:46.250 --> 00:23:55.709 Sandor Katz: the Human Microbiome Project, and our growing awareness that bacteria are, you know, an important part of our functionality.
147 00:23:55.710 --> 00:24:19.049 Sandor Katz: You know, for, you know, it looks like all of us, you know, grew up, you know, some, somewhere, you know, mid-century U.S, and mid-century 20th century, and, you know, we never heard a good word about bacteria. Bacteria were really, you know, to the degree that they were recognized at all, they were recognized as something dangerous, our enemies to be destroyed with chemicals.
148 00:24:19.050 --> 00:24:36.890 Sandor Katz: But, you know, in the last couple of decades, you know, there's really, like, a growing recognition that, you know, we can't really think of bacteria as our enemies. Bacteria are our ancestors, and bacteria have been with us all along, and bacteria are an important part of our…
149 00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:45.190 Sandor Katz: ability to function, our physiology, and, you know, the same is true for every kind of animal and every kind of plant.
150 00:24:45.500 --> 00:25:08.240 Sandor Katz: So, so I think a lot of people have gotten interested in fermentation for, you know, what we call probiotics, you know, the idea of ingesting bacteria that can potentially increase biodiversity in our bodies, and potentially improve digestion, improve immune function. There's even some research suggesting that it can improve
151 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:09.810 Sandor Katz: Mental health.
152 00:25:09.810 --> 00:25:24.209 Sandor Katz: So I think that's the number one reason. You know, I know that, you know, since COVID times, there's been, and really, I think in the UK, since earlier than that, there's been a, you know, a great revival of interest in sourdough bread.
153 00:25:24.210 --> 00:25:49.109 Sandor Katz: You know, and basically, if you compare a loaf of bread that was made with pure culture yeast versus a well-fermented sourdough loaf, you have a lot more nutrients in the sourdough loaf, because the fermentation breaks down chemical bonds and makes minerals that are in the grains more accessible to the people who eat the bread. So, you know, it breaks down gluten, so a lot of people who can't
154 00:25:49.110 --> 00:26:01.800 Sandor Katz: eat, your standard commercial supermarket bread, can eat it, you get more nutrients out of it, it tastes better, and it has the potential to last longer.
155 00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:22.639 Sandor Katz: you know, my interest in fermentation, I've been, you know, kind of obsessed with fermentation for, I'd say, 32 years now. You know, my first interest was, you know, as a kid, where I wasn't thinking about fermentation, but I loved pickles, and my grandparents were all immigrants from
156 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:34.740 Sandor Katz: Eastern Europe and the kinds of pickles that we had in our home were fermented cucumbers, what sometimes people call kosher dills. You know, they're sort of the Polish style.
157 00:26:34.740 --> 00:26:54.209 Sandor Katz: of gherkins that you, you know, probably can find sometimes in the UK. And I love this flavor of lactic acid. I wasn't thinking about how they were made, but I was very drawn from a very young age to this, you know, this flavor of fermentation.
158 00:26:55.520 --> 00:27:18.290 Sandor Katz: When I was in my mid-20s, I spent a couple of years experimenting with a diet called macrobiotics. That's a sort of Japanese-inspired diet, and macrobiotics really places a lot of emphasis on the digestive benefit of pickles and other live ferments. And I started noticing during that time that these pickles that I'd been eating my entire life, whenever I would bite into them.
159 00:27:18.610 --> 00:27:34.820 Sandor Katz: frankly, now, when I just think about them or talk about them, I can feel my salivary glands under my tongue squirting out saliva, and I really began to associate these foods in a very tangible way with getting my digestive juices flowing.
160 00:27:34.820 --> 00:27:58.400 Sandor Katz: And I started really seeking out live fermented foods, but I still wasn't making them, because I was living in New York, where I grew up, and they were really quite readily available. But then I moved to, to Tennessee. I moved to rural Tennessee and started keeping a garden. And I had been such a naive city kid, I'd never even thought about the idea that in a garden.
161 00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:21.420 Sandor Katz: all of the cabbage would be ready at about the same time. All of the radishes would be ready at about the same time. So, the first year that I was gardening and, you know, had a nice abundance of cabbage, you know, it occurred to me, oh, I love sauerkraut. I think that has something to do with preserving cabbage. I should figure out how to make sauerkraut. And, you know, I just looked in, you know, the most
162 00:28:21.420 --> 00:28:46.390 Sandor Katz: common cookbook you would find in American kitchens, called The Joy of Cooking. And I found a recipe for how to make sauerkraut, and it was deceptively simple. I started making sauerkraut, I started playing around, experimenting with incorporating different kinds of vegetables in it, different seasonings, then I learned how to make yogurt. That summer, we had abundant blackberries, and I'd heard of blackberry wine, and I decided to
163 00:28:46.390 --> 00:29:04.249 Sandor Katz: investigate how to make blackberry wine. And, you know, that just began me on a journey of, you know, trying to learn about different kinds of fermentations. And then I've, I wrote some books. My first book, Wild Fermentation, was published in 2003.
164 00:29:04.660 --> 00:29:18.010 Sandor Katz: My biggest, most recognized book, The Art of Fermentation, was published in 2012. This is my most recent book that was published in 2021.
165 00:29:18.010 --> 00:29:42.859 Sandor Katz: And I've taught all around the world. I'm actually going to be teaching, this spring, in the UK. I have two multi-day workshops there, one in Shropshire, one in Cambridge, and then also some, some events in London. But, I mean, I've probably taught in, like, 25 countries.
166 00:29:42.860 --> 00:29:49.720 Sandor Katz: I mean, there's just… there's huge, huge interest in this everywhere. And,
167 00:29:49.720 --> 00:30:02.169 Sandor Katz: you know, I think that because most of us were, you know, raised to imagine that bacteria are so dangerous, a lot of people project their anxiety about bacteria onto the process.
168 00:30:02.170 --> 00:30:10.769 Sandor Katz: So, you know, when people get interested in this, a lot of people have a certain amount of anxiety about it. So really, most of the work I do is
169 00:30:11.140 --> 00:30:29.700 Sandor Katz: demystifying fermentation. The fact is, fermentation makes food safer. You know, I have various jars of fermented vegetables right here. I mean, in the United States, there has never been one single case of food poisoning or illness from fermented vegetables. It's about as safe as
170 00:30:29.700 --> 00:30:38.880 Sandor Katz: Food gets, because Acid, you know, the acidic environment that's created by the fermentation makes it impossible for
171 00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:53.150 Sandor Katz: for any of the organisms that we associate with food poisoning and illness to grow. So even if the vegetables had been contaminated in some way with cells of salmonella, E. coli, something like that.
172 00:30:53.340 --> 00:31:14.549 Sandor Katz: once you ferment it, they are destroyed by the acidity. So, you know, I mean, fermentation, in every case, is a strategy for safety. You know, when you're dealing with animal products, when you're dealing with milk, and when you're dealing with meat, you know, there's a little bit more potential for danger. You never have, like, a zero-risk situation.
173 00:31:14.550 --> 00:31:22.229 Sandor Katz: But still, the process of fermentation, in particular the acidifying fermentations, just make food,
174 00:31:22.230 --> 00:31:32.150 Sandor Katz: safer. So, you know, a lot of what I do is demystifying it, and that's really mostly what people need, but there's a huge hunger for information.
175 00:31:32.390 --> 00:31:43.669 Sandor Katz: about this from people who are interested in trying it out. You know, I would say it goes, you know, really hand-in-hand with any kind of efforts to…
176 00:31:49.900 --> 00:32:14.900 Sandor Katz: reinvigorate local food production, to, you know, sort of be encouraging, you know, efforts for, you know, a region to grow more food for itself, because it's just such an effective strategy for preservation. And, you know, while we're not today mostly thinking about something like cheese as a strategy for preservation.
177 00:32:14.900 --> 00:32:22.690 Sandor Katz: I mean, that's what cheese is, is preserved milk. You take something that is, you know, among the most perishable of food products.
178 00:32:22.690 --> 00:32:32.170 Sandor Katz: And then you make a hard cheese with it, and, you know, it can sit, you know, even in a, you know, ambient room temperature
179 00:32:32.170 --> 00:32:56.020 Sandor Katz: for years. So, you know, it really extends the life of food, and, you know, it's just part of how people everywhere make practical use of the food resources that are available to them. So I think, you know, any kind of efforts to, encourage local food production need to, you know, encourage, you know, various preservation,
180 00:32:56.020 --> 00:33:06.520 Sandor Katz: methods, including fermentation. And then the one other thing I'll mention, because Graham told me that many of you were involved in local councils.
181 00:33:06.520 --> 00:33:31.440 Sandor Katz: is, the regulatory environment. I mean, a lot of the, you know, small producers, you know, just are suffocated by, you know, regulations that have been designed for large-scale food production. And, you know, if we want to encourage, local and regional food production, including fermentation, you know, we just have to make it possible.
182 00:33:31.720 --> 00:33:40.350 Sandor Katz: For people to, you know, sort of begin production enterprises, and part of that is,
183 00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:47.910 Sandor Katz: you know, being reasonable in the regulatory requirements.
184 00:33:49.180 --> 00:34:01.880 Sandor Katz: I guess I will stop with that, and, you know, hopefully, some of you have, have, have, have, have curiosities and, you know, things you'd, you'd like to ask me to address.
185 00:34:02.770 --> 00:34:27.579 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: That was fascinating. I must say, we spend a lot of time on these forums talking about biodiversity and biodiversification, net gain, net gain, and biodiversity net gain. And it's the first time I ever had suggested to me that, biodiversity is going on inside my body, so it's… that was very refreshing. Thank you very much.
186 00:34:27.580 --> 00:34:31.270 Sandor Katz: Well, and let me just say one further thing about that, which is that
187 00:34:31.830 --> 00:34:53.840 Sandor Katz: I mean, I don't think historically, you know, I mean, nobody really ever had to think about that. You know, and the same is just as true of, you know, a cow or a rabbit, and obviously they're not thinking about that. But, you know, sort of two factors more than anything else, you know, have caused
188 00:34:53.840 --> 00:35:15.290 Sandor Katz: a diminishment of biodiversity in our bodies. And number one is chemical exposure, the most obvious being antibiotic drugs, but, you know, really, really many others, you know, agrochemicals, you know, different kinds of chemical exposures have caused a diminished biodiversity in our gut.
189 00:35:15.290 --> 00:35:30.030 Sandor Katz: You know, as compared to our ancestors. And then the second is fiber in our diets. Like, with the amount of prepared foods that people are eating, you know, juices with the pulp removed.
190 00:35:30.030 --> 00:35:53.549 Sandor Katz: you know, much less root vegetables, you know, we just have less fiber, than, than, than, you know, most people in the past have had. And so, you know, fiber constitutes the food for bacteria, you know, along the entire length of our digestive system, like the, you know, the, the, the…
191 00:35:53.960 --> 00:36:05.379 Sandor Katz: the new jargony way to say this is, prebiotics. You know, sort of foods that feed the bacteria in our bodies. And so, you know, you know, we just have
192 00:36:05.550 --> 00:36:15.229 Sandor Katz: You know, more reason that we need to diversify the bacteria in our gut, you know, and also eat more fiber.
193 00:36:16.730 --> 00:36:25.860 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Well, I have a host of other questions, but I see there are some other people lining up, so let's go through them first. Stuart, would you like to press on, please?
194 00:36:25.860 --> 00:36:39.969 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: Yeah, I'd just like to say thank you for a very, interesting and entertaining, talk, and I would like to concur with you. I unfortunately have to have a Polish cleaner who regularly makes this for me.
195 00:36:40.270 --> 00:36:45.370 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: You're fermented, cucumbers. Yes. No.
196 00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:55.959 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: But my question, really, I've become increasingly interested in, soils, and obviously growing food. I do a lot of,
197 00:36:56.800 --> 00:36:58.450 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: Growing veg at home.
198 00:36:59.150 --> 00:37:06.280 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: And I'm becoming increasingly aware of the role of mycorrhizal fungi
199 00:37:06.810 --> 00:37:14.790 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: But also now, there seems to be, as complex as the human microbiome, our plant's microbiome.
200 00:37:14.980 --> 00:37:19.690 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: So, not only the fungi there, the bacteria, the viruses…
201 00:37:20.070 --> 00:37:23.500 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: And, I gather studies have shown that,
202 00:37:23.890 --> 00:37:30.260 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: food grown in really good soil with lots of mycorrhizal fungi and bacteria.
203 00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:35.240 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: Apart from being better for you, they've actually done taste tests
204 00:37:35.750 --> 00:37:39.900 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: And I think it was on, corn, they made bread out of it.
205 00:37:40.020 --> 00:37:42.670 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: And testers could actually tell
206 00:37:43.020 --> 00:37:50.869 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: whether this corn had been grown in a soil rich in mycorrhizal fungi, or soil without the mycorrhizal fungi.
207 00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:55.780 Sandor Katz: So I'm just a bit concerned about the rise in,
208 00:37:55.780 --> 00:37:58.150 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: urban hydroponic farms.
209 00:37:59.180 --> 00:38:05.949 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: Does the hydroponics confer the same benefits as growing it in good, natural soil?
210 00:38:07.110 --> 00:38:10.570 Sandor Katz: I would say probably not.
211 00:38:10.650 --> 00:38:22.690 Sandor Katz: But, you know, I mean, I'm certainly not… I'm not an expert in that. You know, what I can tell you is that there's a broad consensus among, you know, botanists and microbi…
212 00:38:22.690 --> 00:38:33.149 Sandor Katz: biologists, that, you know, every plant growing out of soil on planet Earth is host to lactic acid bacteria.
213 00:38:33.560 --> 00:38:43.320 Sandor Katz: And the same is not necessarily true of hydroponics, unless… It has specifically been introduced.
214 00:38:44.860 --> 00:39:09.110 Sandor Katz: So, I mean, you know, that's my small window onto this larger question, but I would say that, no. I mean, you know, hydroponics, you know, fundamentally lacks the, you know, the biodiversity of, of, of, of the soil. Now, I mean, I, you know, to me, that would not be, like, a reason to.
215 00:39:13.570 --> 00:39:36.509 Sandor Katz: you know, be against, hydroponic agriculture. It's just saying, like, hydroponic agriculture alone really cannot fully sustain us. Yeah, you know, it can certainly supplement, and maybe, you know, enable us to be able to grow food in places where we would not otherwise be able to.
216 00:39:36.510 --> 00:39:52.529 Sandor Katz: But, I mean, I think it has to just be viewed as, you know, a little bit of extra, like, that needs to be on top of a base of, food grown in, you know, the more, traditional, you know, out-of-the-soil way.
217 00:39:53.580 --> 00:39:54.640 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: Okay, thank you.
218 00:39:56.530 --> 00:39:57.760 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Amanda, please.
219 00:39:58.240 --> 00:40:09.320 Amanda Davis: Hello! My profuse apologies and regret that my, laptop wouldn't let me in. So, I arrived, just as you said, so I'll leave it there.
220 00:40:10.540 --> 00:40:27.049 Amanda Davis: So, I am so grateful that these sessions are recorded, because I was so looking forward to today's session. I… I'm a complete convert, if convert is the right word, away from,
221 00:40:27.370 --> 00:40:29.800 Amanda Davis: High… highly processed food.
222 00:40:29.980 --> 00:40:37.339 Amanda Davis: I can only guess what you've been speaking about, but, I've been involved with Zoe and Tim Spector's group.
223 00:40:37.680 --> 00:40:47.419 Amanda Davis: gut health are from a scientific, academic, and NHS, foot in both camps, and my professional background is as a health economist.
224 00:40:47.420 --> 00:41:00.910 Amanda Davis: so trained to, understand what is good research and what isn't, and what could be, cost-effective for our NHS, for our country. But also, what is good for us as individuals.
225 00:41:01.110 --> 00:41:03.969 Amanda Davis: And I've had cancer twice.
226 00:41:04.120 --> 00:41:21.130 Amanda Davis: So, not only have I had all manner of chemical exposure, but internally, my gut and my own microbe, if you like, biodiversity, has been completely shot, never mind antibiotics. I mean, this is about the worst thing you can do to a body.
227 00:41:21.190 --> 00:41:27.020 Amanda Davis: And I'm still here, so I'm trying to resolve all of my…
228 00:41:27.510 --> 00:41:45.519 Amanda Davis: what my body is… the state it's now in, and recover it. And, so I… and I have a good friend in Jennifer who's a friend to this program, this group, who's a water specialist, but she's helped me with, fermentation.
229 00:41:45.590 --> 00:41:54.789 Amanda Davis: Whether it's seeds, or it's all the different bits and pieces that one can start… let's call them starters, for want of a better word.
230 00:41:54.890 --> 00:42:00.560 Amanda Davis: And I was also blessed with a new neighbor a couple of months ago who's a Chinese specialist on mushrooms.
231 00:42:01.010 --> 00:42:13.379 Amanda Davis: And, how mushroom, production, and how to keep it in its natural state, and yet spread it as widely as possible for all the benefits of human health.
232 00:42:13.710 --> 00:42:16.410 Amanda Davis: And whilst being kind to the planet.
233 00:42:16.810 --> 00:42:30.690 Amanda Davis: So, those were my reasons for wanting to come and to, you know, curiosity. And also, I don't mind sharing with anybody who's going to listen to the playback on this that, I am a druid in my Outlook.
234 00:42:30.900 --> 00:42:34.010 Amanda Davis: So, a great believer that the Earth
235 00:42:34.430 --> 00:42:49.450 Amanda Davis: We don't need to try and recreate how clever the Earth is. It does what, naturally, it does best, because it's like survival of the fittest, and whatever you want to believe as far as the Earth looking out for us, and itself.
236 00:42:49.930 --> 00:42:53.979 Amanda Davis: And, you know, if it does it, why don't we try to recreate it?
237 00:42:54.240 --> 00:42:55.830 Amanda Davis: Just let it do it!
238 00:42:55.910 --> 00:43:15.830 Amanda Davis: So I, any reflections that you might have to turn this into a question on how somebody recovering from two lifetime doses worth of chemotherapy, radiotherapy, all the other things that, can go wrong with the gut? I definitely feel that my gut is very different to what it was before treatment.
239 00:43:15.830 --> 00:43:18.720 Amanda Davis: And it's been 5 years now that I've been trying to…
240 00:43:19.010 --> 00:43:20.930 Amanda Davis: Get it back to what it was.
241 00:43:21.990 --> 00:43:22.710 Amanda Davis: It's not a.
242 00:43:22.710 --> 00:43:23.150 Sandor Katz: Well, I'm.
243 00:43:23.150 --> 00:43:26.889 Amanda Davis: It's not a medical question I'm asking you, it's purely from a…
244 00:43:26.890 --> 00:43:29.070 Sandor Katz: Yeah, no, no, I understand.
245 00:43:29.190 --> 00:43:47.709 Sandor Katz: So, I mean, what I can tell you is I have done, you know, a handful of workshops over the years, with cancer survivor groups. You know, groups of people in exactly the same situation that you are, who, you know, have survived, but,
246 00:43:47.710 --> 00:43:55.490 Sandor Katz: You know, with new problems, you know, caused by the… the treatments that they received. And,
247 00:43:55.490 --> 00:44:03.819 Sandor Katz: you know, I think a lot of people find that incorporating live fermented foods into
248 00:44:03.820 --> 00:44:22.989 Sandor Katz: you know, the diet can, you know, improve gut function in different ways. You know, and then the other, you know, then the other related issue is the ways in which, you know, you know, eating bacteria-rich foods by
249 00:44:23.700 --> 00:44:35.209 Sandor Katz: Increasing biodiversity in the gut can also help overall immune function, and a lot of people have, like, you know, come out of that with some kind of suppressed immunity.
250 00:44:35.210 --> 00:44:46.259 Sandor Katz: So, you know, I'm definitely not a medical professional, but I like to share information about how to make these foods with people, and I know that, you know, some people in your situation have found these foods helpful.
251 00:44:46.260 --> 00:44:54.160 Sandor Katz: Let me also just say that, like, I have, you know, encountered, you know, more than a few people who are
252 00:44:54.160 --> 00:45:13.079 Sandor Katz: promoting various fermented foods on the basis of health claims that I would consider to be unsubstantiated. So, you know, for instance, like, you know, there are known to be these compounds called isothiocyanates that develop in fermented vegetables, which
253 00:45:13.080 --> 00:45:20.869 Sandor Katz: You know, may in some regard be considered anti-carcinogenic, preventing the kinds of mutations that can lead to
254 00:45:20.870 --> 00:45:43.840 Sandor Katz: to cancers, and then some people have extrapolated from that, that, like, eating sauerkraut is a treatment for cancer. I mean, I would never, ever recommend to anyone that, you know, if they're facing a cancer diagnosis, all they need to do is eat a lot of sauerkraut, although I have met people who are convinced that they cured their cancer by
255 00:45:43.840 --> 00:46:03.219 Sandor Katz: eating fermented vegetables. So, I mean, I think we have to regard these things as, you know, supplemental, that have the potential to improve digestion, improve immune function. They're generally not, like, the answer to a huge health challenge.
256 00:46:06.820 --> 00:46:29.720 Sandor Katz: You know, and then more broadly, I mean, I think, you know, the move away from processed foods, I mean, you know, not only for people, you know, facing huge, health challenges, but, you know, maybe even more so for people who haven't yet, but, you know, just moving towards, you know, more, more, a more wholesome.
257 00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:47.209 Sandor Katz: a whole foods diet, rather than these, you know, sort of foods, you know, made in a laboratory that, you know, have, you know, fragmented parts of so many different things with so many, you know, synthesized chemicals added to them.
258 00:46:47.210 --> 00:46:51.589 Sandor Katz: So yeah, I mean, I'm a real proponent of, you know,
259 00:46:51.590 --> 00:47:11.169 Sandor Katz: a simpler, you know, simpler diet, and I think that, you know, they just serve our well-being better, and even further than that. I mean, I would say I'm a proponent of trying to, you know, move away from centralized food production and global.
260 00:47:11.170 --> 00:47:27.579 Sandor Katz: global food distribution and really reinvigorating local and regional food production, and I think that they really, you know, go together. And I don't say that as someone who's, like, dogmatically opposed to
261 00:47:27.580 --> 00:47:38.369 Sandor Katz: you know, I mean, I love to eat oranges, and I love to eat bananas. I mean, I think… I don't think it's wrong to eat things that come from far away, but I think what creates huge,
262 00:47:38.370 --> 00:47:52.440 Sandor Katz: vulnerabilities is, you know, when we have a society that is so completely dependent on food resources that, you know, come from such faraway places, and it just makes everybody more vulnerable
263 00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:56.639 Sandor Katz: To, you know, any kind of disruptions, whether it's, you know,
264 00:47:57.160 --> 00:48:10.620 Sandor Katz: pandemic, like, like, COVID, or, you know, whether it's, you know, war, tariffs, political violence, you know, I think that,
265 00:48:10.620 --> 00:48:21.279 Sandor Katz: You know, everybody is in a more secure, less vulnerable position when, you know, more of our food is being produced locally and regionally.
266 00:48:23.010 --> 00:48:29.090 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Fantastic. I've got a bunch of questions for you, Sandra, so let me move on to David, so that he isn't waiting forever.
267 00:48:30.220 --> 00:48:31.709 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: It's all yours, David.
268 00:48:31.850 --> 00:48:32.910 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): Yes.
269 00:48:35.960 --> 00:48:43.449 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): I wanted to ask about… Fermenting industrial chemicals, not food.
270 00:48:43.900 --> 00:48:52.459 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): I actually visited a… I was doing a PhD in youth suicane byproducts, and I visited a place in…
271 00:48:52.460 --> 00:49:04.709 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): Egypt, where they made acetone and butanol by fermenting molasses, using the process they do in Russia for, based on potatoes.
272 00:49:05.490 --> 00:49:12.529 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): It's actually part… it used to be, before the rise of the petrochemical industry.
273 00:49:12.590 --> 00:49:23.769 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): mostly after the Second World War, pretty well everything came from nature. In fact, Egon Glesinger, who's spent his time preventing the
274 00:49:23.770 --> 00:49:32.839 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): Nazis taking over all the woods in Europe, after the war, wrote a book called The Coming Age of Wood, of how everything we wanted
275 00:49:32.840 --> 00:49:43.830 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): Be it food, chemicals, whatever, could be synthesized from wood and natural products, some of them by fermentation, other by other things, like,
276 00:49:44.380 --> 00:49:50.260 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): So, I was wondering what else we can get by fermentation.
277 00:49:50.450 --> 00:49:51.870 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): Apart from food.
278 00:49:53.860 --> 00:50:15.769 Sandor Katz: Yeah, I mean, I couldn't really speak to the full extent of that. I can tell you that, like, a huge number of pharmaceutical products are made by fermentation, generally by bacteria that have been genetically engineered to create specific chemical byproducts.
279 00:50:16.560 --> 00:50:27.060 Sandor Katz: you know, and I, I, I, I, I would assume, you know, all, all, all kinds of, chemicals are.
280 00:50:27.060 --> 00:50:40.840 Sandor Katz: can be produced in ways like that, but I don't know much about that. I mean, you know, I have no formal background in this. You know, I'm certainly not a microbiologist or a food scientist. I…
281 00:50:40.840 --> 00:50:50.479 Sandor Katz: You know, I've… you know, I got interested in this from my garden, I've, you know, I've been obsessed, but mostly with the food aspects of it, and I don't…
282 00:50:50.480 --> 00:51:02.880 Sandor Katz: You know, I don't know that much about, you know, the full range of industrial applications of fermentation, except to know that they are, they are many and varied.
283 00:51:03.320 --> 00:51:18.760 Sandor Katz: And then I would say, you know, the one other thing I would add is, like, you know, the effort, you know, when there have been oil spills, in the end, it's, you know, it's applying bacteria to break down the oil that is what is able to break it down, and I think that a lot of the…
284 00:51:18.760 --> 00:51:29.900 Sandor Katz: You know, you know, environmental catastrophes that we've had, you know, bacteria, you know, like, offer the
285 00:51:29.900 --> 00:51:33.549 Sandor Katz: You know, the best solutions that we've come up with.
286 00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:36.670 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: It's huge bounce.
287 00:51:36.870 --> 00:51:38.639 Sandor Katz: Sewage plants, yeah, yeah, sure.
288 00:51:38.970 --> 00:51:43.130 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: So I have a couple of questions for you that I hope are pertinent to
289 00:51:43.320 --> 00:52:06.320 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: councillors generally, Sandor, because I felt that the first 30 minutes of your chat were a wonderful education that we could use at council level to, exactly as you say, demystify and perhaps take away some of the dire feelings that people have about bacteria. And I loved your idea of
290 00:52:07.180 --> 00:52:24.450 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: converting milk to cheese was taking one of the most perishable foodstuffs that we've got and changing it to something that's really long-lasting, as well as being safe and nutritious. So, I think we all have a sort of a duty or a desire to educate locally, to, help
291 00:52:24.450 --> 00:52:30.140 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: the local food presentation or production that you're advocating, because I think…
292 00:52:30.720 --> 00:52:46.910 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: over here on the same ballpark of thinking. So, I just wanted to check that… would you be okay with us using your video of you as a local guide? Because I think it was fabulous at helping people understand, actually, what
293 00:52:46.970 --> 00:52:51.110 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: your offering, or the process for fermentation is offering.
294 00:52:51.740 --> 00:53:14.100 Sandor Katz: Yes, I mean, absolutely, I'm happy for you to, you know, use the recording of my presentation today, and if you look at my website, which is wildfermentation.com, if you go to the page called Media Links, I mean, I just list, you know, sort of hundreds, many of them are just articles, but many of them are videos of earlier presentations that I've done.
295 00:53:14.540 --> 00:53:32.179 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Perfect, because I do think that you've done us a great favor by going into what can be done, and I think that the more we generate more food locally as part of our resilience and sustainability programs, the more fermentation is going to play a major part.
296 00:53:32.680 --> 00:53:40.960 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: And I do think he did a lovely job of educating us, so thank you for that. Let me pass you over to Amanda, please.
297 00:53:41.800 --> 00:53:49.520 Amanda Davis: Yes, only if everybody else has had to go number one first. Then I'll be greedy and have my second attempt.
298 00:53:50.830 --> 00:53:58.309 Amanda Davis: I would like to draw everybody's attention, if you're not already, and if she's not on the call, to one of our councillors in Stroud.
299 00:53:58.700 --> 00:54:11.300 Amanda Davis: Who is working… I'm fairly sure it's Stroud, now I've said that, not Forrest, of Dean, but it's here in Gloucestershire anyway, who was rather taken by the idea of all the doggy-do
300 00:54:11.590 --> 00:54:13.609 Amanda Davis: So we have that much poop.
301 00:54:13.650 --> 00:54:26.809 Amanda Davis: that gets collected, and what happens to it, and could something more useful be done with it? And all the whole idea about how do we break down undesirable into something that could be really positive and useful.
302 00:54:26.810 --> 00:54:42.110 Amanda Davis: And I'm very aware that my gut appears to be much better since I've started fostering guide dogs and having animals in the house. Now, I'm not suggesting anything untoward here. I'm simply saying that she's managed to find quite a good way using wormeries.
303 00:54:42.260 --> 00:54:44.600 Amanda Davis: to, to…
304 00:54:44.890 --> 00:54:59.100 Amanda Davis: convert something that is regarded as waste and a problem into something that's useful, and healthy, and reduces a problem. So, I'm just wondering whether fermentation, accepting that I've missed your presentation.
305 00:54:59.250 --> 00:55:09.090 Amanda Davis: But, is there something that fermentation might help us with the undesirables converting them into something useful?
306 00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:10.440 Amanda Davis: No.
307 00:55:10.440 --> 00:55:27.400 Sandor Katz: Well, I mean, basically, you know, the reason why, you know, the Earth isn't just a pile of excrement, of, you know, dogs, every other animal, humans, is because it breaks down so readily. And so,
308 00:55:27.520 --> 00:55:37.490 Sandor Katz: You know, I mean, as Graham just mentioned, you know, sewage treatment. That's all based on bacteria. but,
309 00:55:38.160 --> 00:55:49.760 Sandor Katz: you know, I think, you know, any kind of animal excrement, I mean, nobody really talks about dog poop as, you know, as full of fertility as, say, cow poop.
310 00:55:49.760 --> 00:56:01.180 Sandor Katz: You know, but it will break down. And, you know, you know, composting the microbial breakdown of organic matter.
311 00:56:01.180 --> 00:56:15.069 Sandor Katz: you know, is basically based on mixing different kinds of things together. So if you just made a giant mountain of dog poop, it would be very, very slow to break down, but if you mixed it
312 00:56:15.070 --> 00:56:38.939 Sandor Katz: If you mix that with, you know, various, you know, dead leaves and, you know, fallen leaves and dead plants, it would, it would break down quite readily, and just sort of, you know, disappear and, you know, potentially be a source of, soil fertility.
313 00:56:39.250 --> 00:56:44.369 Sandor Katz: But I think that, you know, the… you know, I mean, his…
314 00:56:44.570 --> 00:57:00.509 Sandor Katz: historically, there hasn't really been the concept of waste that we have now. You know, like, you know, everything, you know, everything just recycles back into the earth, and it's really, you know, quite, quite, quite elegant.
315 00:57:02.920 --> 00:57:10.940 Amanda Davis: Because what I was thinking of from the perspective of this particular councillor's inspiration to our council…
316 00:57:10.940 --> 00:57:19.059 Sandor Katz: Or is one of, instead of seeing waste as something you've got to manage away and out of your environment, and then becomes a problem.
317 00:57:19.140 --> 00:57:29.519 Amanda Davis: Can we do more at parish and town council level to have a circular economy in waste? In other words, produce something useful at a parish council level.
318 00:57:29.520 --> 00:57:42.470 Amanda Davis: that our community can then benefit from. So, not just composting, but whether it needs to be wormery, whether there needs to be tests done to check that all the nasties that are in dog poop are not there when you've finished your processing.
319 00:57:42.470 --> 00:57:46.870 Amanda Davis: You know, that whole thing of how do we make it easy for people?
320 00:57:47.120 --> 00:57:50.850 Amanda Davis: To, to have that circular waist…
321 00:57:51.270 --> 00:58:03.019 Amanda Davis: management in such a way that we all can learn from it easily, and it's kind of like in a kit, a do-it-yourself, you know, take away all the… maybe you still need the red dog
322 00:58:03.020 --> 00:58:16.449 Amanda Davis: Poop bins. But it's the parish that collects instead of district having to send out vehicles that have to travel a long way, and then the incinerators, and all the other stuff that is just unnecessary if you put your worms to it.
323 00:58:17.630 --> 00:58:35.809 Sandor Katz: Yeah. I mean, you know, what I would say is that it's a lot more practical at some sort of collective level than at the individual level. And with composting, the reason is that once you reach a certain critical mass, you generate a lot of heat.
324 00:58:36.080 --> 00:58:48.910 Sandor Katz: If you have a tiny little compost pile at home, not necessarily, but the larger the mass of it, the more heat you will generate, and heat is the key to making it safe.
325 00:58:49.190 --> 00:58:51.410 Sandor Katz: Because that's…
326 00:58:51.410 --> 00:58:53.860 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Once it generates heat.
327 00:58:54.500 --> 00:59:00.689 Sandor Katz: It will generally kill any of the pathogenic bacteria that might be present in it.
328 00:59:00.690 --> 00:59:19.649 Sandor Katz: So, I mean, the collective level could really be, you know, sort of quite limited and small, but it's the accumulation that, you know, sort of enables the process to be so effective.
329 00:59:22.940 --> 00:59:24.030 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Okay.
330 00:59:24.030 --> 00:59:42.669 Amanda Davis: for another quick question, Graeme, which is simply, if I may, does that mean that, in your opinion, the size at a parish and Town Council level would be too small to generate that heat, or is it a question that, actually, just leave it as it is, because when all that poop gets collected from a whole district.
331 00:59:42.670 --> 00:59:44.879 Amanda Davis: That's the sort of scale that we need.
332 00:59:45.190 --> 00:59:51.190 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: Parishes, you should say, Amanda, sorry to interrupt, something between 2,000 and 5,000 residents, you know.
333 00:59:51.800 --> 00:59:52.470 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: Nope.
334 00:59:53.270 --> 00:59:55.699 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: So, a certain number of dogs.
335 00:59:55.700 --> 01:00:14.479 Sandor Katz: Yeah, I mean, I think the key is, it can't just be the dog excrement. It needs to be mixed with other things in order to, you know, sort of generate that heat and effectively break down.
336 01:00:14.480 --> 01:00:22.639 Amanda Davis: Perfect. So keep going with the composting, and include, animal pet excrement within that.
337 01:00:23.210 --> 01:00:23.680 Sandor Katz: Yeah.
338 01:00:23.680 --> 01:00:27.429 Amanda Davis: Have it of scale. Thank you very much, thank you, that's really helpful.
339 01:00:28.730 --> 01:00:33.389 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Coming back to an earlier question, Sandor, you were…
340 01:00:33.520 --> 01:00:40.750 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Suggesting how fermentation can help your microbiome recover after cancer treatment.
341 01:00:40.980 --> 01:00:49.570 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: What sort of timescale are we looking to affect these changes after you've wiped out virtually everything with radiation and chemicals?
342 01:00:50.650 --> 01:00:53.340 Sandor Katz: Well, okay. I mean, I…
343 01:00:53.340 --> 01:01:11.549 Sandor Katz: you know, I am not a practitioner. I can't give people, I can't really give you, give anyone a timeline. What I can offer is anecdotal reports, and I can say, like, you know, in, you know, my career as a fermentation educator, I have heard
344 01:01:11.600 --> 01:01:31.159 Sandor Katz: Many hundreds of people tell me that, you know, when they began introducing live fermented foods into their diet, whatever kind of chronic digestive problems that they were having started improving.
345 01:01:31.510 --> 01:01:48.409 Sandor Katz: You know, I have heard people who say, I've never eaten foods like this, you know, when I first ate them, I had a lot of gas, I had some kind of digestive disruption, but then more often I've heard the story, but I kept on eating a little bit, and everything started to get better.
346 01:01:48.460 --> 01:01:59.390 Sandor Katz: So, you know, I would say it's not about a singular food, it's not… I'm not saying, like, oh, you have to eat sauerkraut. It's about diversity.
347 01:01:59.390 --> 01:02:24.159 Sandor Katz: Eating a variety of different kinds of live fermented foods, eating some yogurt, eating some sauerkraut, eating some kimchi. You know, it's about the variety. It's not about eating a lot, you know, people, you know, people sometimes imagine, you know, that I'm talking about, you know, eating a big plate full of sauerkraut.
348 01:02:24.160 --> 01:02:27.770 Sandor Katz: It's about trying to eat a little bit Frequently.
349 01:02:27.770 --> 01:02:51.240 Sandor Katz: And with some variety. And I can't give… I can't give you a timeline. I mean, you know, part of the problem is, you know, everybody's body is… is different. And, you know, the… the problems that people… and I wouldn't recommend this specifically just for people who are recovering from chemotherapy. I mean, I think that
350 01:02:51.240 --> 01:02:56.920 Sandor Katz: You know, almost everybody can benefit from improved digestion.
351 01:02:56.940 --> 01:03:21.149 Sandor Katz: You know, we live in a society where, you know, vast, vast, vast numbers of people experience constipation. Some people experience more serious disruptions, irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's disease. And I'm not saying that fermented vegetables are just the cure-all for all of these things, but…
352 01:03:21.150 --> 01:03:44.320 Sandor Katz: You know, so consistently through the years, I've heard feedback from people that their digestion seemed to improve as a result of incorporating these kinds of foods, but I can't say 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 months, you know, everybody's, you know, everybody's different, and the…
353 01:03:44.320 --> 01:04:09.319 Sandor Katz: condition that people are beginning with is always different. There's nobody, nobody who's had chemotherapy, nobody who's taken antibiotic drugs for years, nobody's starting with zero bacteria in their gut, because it would just be utterly impossible for us to survive with zero bacteria in our gut. But, you know, all of these kinds of processes, you know.
354 01:04:09.320 --> 01:04:13.689 Sandor Katz: You know, have the result of diminishing biodiversity.
355 01:04:13.690 --> 01:04:29.849 Sandor Katz: So, you know, just, you know, strategies for improving biodiversity are a great way to go, and this is not the only one. I mean, there's certainly more radical ways people do this. You know, there are,
356 01:04:30.190 --> 01:04:54.970 Sandor Katz: you know, basically like, you know, suppositories, you know, microbiome suppositories that people sometimes take to, you know, try to dramatically improve, gut biodiversity. But this is an extremely accessible one, you know, where you don't need, you know, you don't need, you know, to go to a doctor, because these are, these are just incredible.
357 01:04:54.970 --> 01:05:04.040 Sandor Katz: incredibly safe foods that are more and more widely available. I mean, the first time I taught in the UK, which was probably 2007 or 8,
358 01:05:04.040 --> 01:05:21.549 Sandor Katz: I mean, I couldn't find live fermented vegetables anywhere. But now, you know, my more recent visits, I mean, they're really, I mean, I wouldn't say that they're everywhere, but they're really, like, quite available if you seek them out. And then, you know, beyond that, you know, this…
359 01:05:22.090 --> 01:05:42.899 Sandor Katz: you know, making a jar of fermented vegetables is, you know, I can tell you in 30 seconds how you do it. Like, you chop vegetables, you create surface area, there's no single way to do it. You can do it finely, you can do it coarsely, whatever you like. You salt them, there's no magic number. A lot of people throw around 2% salt, that's
360 01:05:42.900 --> 01:06:07.879 Sandor Katz: perfectly fine, but, you know, personally, I prefer lower salt. I probably do, like, 1.25% salt, but I don't measure it, I just lightly salt it, mix it all up, taste it. You know, it's just like anything else. Like, you just salt it to taste, and we don't all have the same taste for salt. Then you can add other kinds of seasonings as you wish. You know, I love caraway seeds, you know, sometimes I make kimchi and I have
361 01:06:07.880 --> 01:06:29.939 Sandor Katz: I put chilis and ginger in there. I've had some beautiful curry krauts. Some people like dill. You can keep it really plain. You know, the only limitation is our imagination. And then you mix up the salt and the seasonings with the vegetables. I like to spend, like, a few minutes just squeezing the vegetables with my hands, and what this does is
362 01:06:30.080 --> 01:06:36.430 Sandor Katz: You know, the salt starts drawing water out of the vegetables, and then squeezing them
363 01:06:37.080 --> 01:06:46.940 Sandor Katz: Squeezing them, basically breaks down cell walls and helps them release more juice more quickly, and the key is simply getting the vegetables submerged, and so then you just take a jar.
364 01:06:46.940 --> 01:07:00.979 Sandor Katz: You know, any kind of a jar. A wide-mouthed jar is easier to deal with than a narrow-neck jar, but whatever, you can work with any kind of jar. And then you just force the vegetables in there until they're submerged under their own juices.
365 01:07:01.210 --> 01:07:04.830 Sandor Katz: And then you just wait, and then… There's no…
366 01:07:06.270 --> 01:07:31.240 Sandor Katz: fixed length of time. You know, one variable would be temperature. If you make it, like, in a summer heat wave, it's… everything's gonna go much faster. If your kitchen is cool, or if you have a cellar that stays the temperature of the earth, the process goes very, very slowly, and you can really potentially preserve the vegetables for many months. I mean, you know, this was made in October.
367 01:07:31.240 --> 01:07:47.370 Sandor Katz: This has never been in the refrigerator. I have a cellar under my house with a big, with, oh yeah, okay, you've got one there. So, but you don't have to wait for months. Like, you know, you… I mean, I generally recommend people wait, like, 4 or 5 days, and then taste it.
368 01:07:47.370 --> 01:08:06.270 Sandor Katz: And then press the vegetables back down under the juice, and then give it another 4 or 5 days. Taste it again. The acidity builds over time. So, it turns out that many people who have not been eating these foods their entire lives prefer a milder version that's not as acidic.
369 01:08:06.270 --> 01:08:11.920 Sandor Katz: That's… that's easier, that's faster. That, you know, that might take a week or something.
370 01:08:12.160 --> 01:08:18.369 Sandor Katz: If you let it go longer, it develops a more pronounced acidity.
371 01:08:18.450 --> 01:08:37.349 Sandor Katz: And, you know, really, if we're thinking about biodiversity, you know, because it turns out it's a successional process where you get different bacterial strains coming into dominance at different stages in the process, if you eat it at different stages of its development, it develops greater biodiversity.
372 01:08:37.350 --> 01:08:41.600 Sandor Katz: But it's a really straightforward process, especially with vegetables.
373 01:08:42.100 --> 01:08:59.639 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Well, I'm delighted you gave us that. Thank you very much, Sandor. There is a quite fascinating television program going on in the UK at the moment called What Not to Eat, and that's alarmingly horrifying and alarmingly, or rather, supportively reassuring at the same time, where
374 01:08:59.640 --> 01:09:16.789 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: They're basically stating that more than 50% of the UK's natural diet is ultra-processed foods, and they want us to change that. But it's intriguing to me that none of the solutions that they've put forward, which do seem to make a big difference to the control
375 01:09:17.250 --> 01:09:28.259 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: victims that they're trying it out on has suggested fermented foods. It's obviously behind the times. But anyway, let's go on to Stuart, please.
376 01:09:28.600 --> 01:09:47.479 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: Well, I was just very quickly going to say, or tell Amanda that, human waste has been collected for many, many years. I think the British military were doing it to extract urea nitrogen to make explosives with.
377 01:09:47.580 --> 01:10:01.299 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: The Japanese have been doing it for a long, long time, going around… there's somebody actually paid to go around and collect, night soil, which they then compost and spread on the farmland.
378 01:10:01.460 --> 01:10:17.950 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: And I do think we've taken a retrograde move by abandoning these things. I think there's a huge amount of natural resources. We're just wasting in water treatment plants and then pumping it into the ocean.
379 01:10:18.220 --> 01:10:22.839 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: We will be conserving it and using it on our own land.
380 01:10:24.130 --> 01:10:30.759 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: The Koreans famously do that. They spread the human feces as fertilizer.
381 01:10:30.760 --> 01:10:33.270 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: They might well do, I don't know.
382 01:10:33.270 --> 01:10:35.370 Amanda Davis: Graham, we do it here in Borton.
383 01:10:35.670 --> 01:10:53.330 Amanda Davis: There you go. There you go. There's a big tank in the field by the, just off the Fosway, there's a lay-by, and the tankers are repeatedly in there with their hoses, putting it into this big container in the field, and then the farms from around here just help themselves to it.
384 01:10:53.330 --> 01:11:01.699 Amanda Davis: But, as I put in the chat, it's the PFAS and the microplastics and the human waste that's the problem. If we put that out on the soil, we've got problems.
385 01:11:01.970 --> 01:11:04.710 Cllr.Stuart Withington, Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: And all the drugs and stuff like that in them.
386 01:11:05.610 --> 01:11:06.480 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Yes.
387 01:11:06.720 --> 01:11:08.220 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: TV, please, what's a…
388 01:11:10.490 --> 01:11:13.390 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): Yes.
389 01:11:13.670 --> 01:11:18.349 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): Just, if you're thinking of things at parish council level.
390 01:11:18.660 --> 01:11:23.840 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): speak to some of the farmers. They may already have a biogas digester.
391 01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:27.230 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): Which can take… the excrement…
392 01:11:27.230 --> 01:11:27.840 Sandor Katz: Hmm.
393 01:11:27.940 --> 01:11:28.710 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): and…
394 01:11:30.050 --> 01:11:40.460 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): Waterweeds. I actually do a research project on how much energy we could get from aquatic plants. Seaweed, if you live near the coast. And…
395 01:11:41.020 --> 01:11:53.989 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): Ideally, first in a biogas digester, so you get some methane, and then into a compost heap. And by that time, you'll actually have reduced the risks of spreading it a fair bit.
396 01:11:55.810 --> 01:11:57.580 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Splendid, thank you. Yeah.
397 01:11:57.580 --> 01:12:02.960 David Newman (Blackbird Leys): And I was going to ask Sander, what's your favorite kind of beer? Completely wild yeast?
398 01:12:02.960 --> 01:12:11.110 Sandor Katz: Yeah, yeah, sure, I mean, I love, I mean, I love, you know,
399 01:12:11.210 --> 01:12:25.730 Sandor Katz: I mean, I love those, like, you know, wild, wild ales and, you know, sour beers, like the Belgian-style ones. I love Saison's, but I love all beer. I mean, I have yet to meet a beer or ale that I didn't like.
400 01:12:25.860 --> 01:12:32.600 Sandor Katz: you know, I have, I have very, a wide-ranging, taste in beer.
401 01:12:34.610 --> 01:12:36.200 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Including alcohol-free.
402 01:12:36.850 --> 01:12:53.749 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Yeah, yeah, sure, no, I mean, I've really… I mean, I think that that, I mean, the techniques for that have gotten a lot better. you know, I would say in the… in the 20 years that I've been doing this, the… the dairy-free cheeses have gotten much, much better.
403 01:12:53.750 --> 01:13:10.619 Sandor Katz: But, you know, I do, I do enjoy alcohol, I do enjoy dairy, you know, I, I mean, I can admire how, how much the techniques have improved, and still, you know, my favorites are the, the classics.
404 01:13:11.600 --> 01:13:18.710 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: Yeah, I think some of the early no-alcohol beers, I think they boiled it to get the alcohol out. Anyway, carry on.
405 01:13:18.710 --> 01:13:42.999 Sandor Katz: And then, okay, so Amanda just asked about kombucha. So, sure, I mean, you know, kombucha, I mean, I can see that, you know, in the UK, as in the US, it's kind of exploded in popularity, and, you know, it's another potential source of live bacterial cultures. You know, for myself, I'm, you know, I'm trying to not drink, you know, too much sugary stuff, and…
406 01:13:43.000 --> 01:14:07.370 Sandor Katz: you know, kombucha still has sugar, you know, it has, you know, some other good stuff that develops as a result of the fermentation, but, you know, I'm just… I'm personally not interested in, like, everyday consumption of sugary beverages, but I think certainly for people coming off of, like, a soda pop habit, you know, kombucha, you know, is a great sort of transition off of that.
407 01:14:07.370 --> 01:14:11.319 Amanda Davis: Are you talking about tinned kombucha, like you buy from the shop, or homemade?
408 01:14:11.730 --> 01:14:13.009 Sandor Katz: Either way, I mean.
409 01:14:13.010 --> 01:14:16.180 Amanda Davis: Because I don't put so much sugar in, I just do it from black tea.
410 01:14:16.370 --> 01:14:34.309 Sandor Katz: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, the sugar's what ferments. Yeah. So you need to add some sugar in, and then most people, if you… like, if you ferment it till all the sugar's gone, it's like vinegar. And, you know, kombucha vinegar is wonderful, but, like, you know, most people don't want to drink it like that.
411 01:14:34.450 --> 01:14:44.030 Amanda Davis: Most people like it when it's, when it's, you know, got some residual sugar so that it tastes sweet.
412 01:14:45.590 --> 01:15:03.499 Sandor Katz: But, and there's, you know, I mean, in the UK, I know there's, there's also people making and selling water kefir, there are, you know, there's a, there's a wonderful, like, you know, Russian, lightly fermented beverage called kvass.
413 01:15:03.630 --> 01:15:10.519 Sandor Katz: which, which, which I really love. But, you know, there's really,
414 01:15:10.800 --> 01:15:18.089 Sandor Katz: You know, the lightly fermented soft drinks is an area where there's, you know, sort of expansive.
415 01:15:18.090 --> 01:15:41.700 Sandor Katz: infinite possibilities. I make this Mexican pineapple beverage, sometimes called tepace, where you basically ferment the pineapple skins in a sugar water solution. I love this Caribbean beverage called Mabi that's made from the bark of a tree that grows
416 01:15:41.700 --> 01:16:04.429 Sandor Katz: On many of the islands of the Caribbean, but this idea of these lightly fermented soft drinks in the vein of kombucha is a whole other realm of fermentation. But, you know, maybe I can wrap this up by saying, like, there is nothing that any of us has ever eaten that cannot be fermented. Like, everything can be fermented.
417 01:16:04.480 --> 01:16:22.469 Sandor Katz: You know, I have right, right, right here, this is a batter made from lentil, lentils and rice. this is, the, the, the, the batter that will make the, the Indian crepes called dosa.
418 01:16:23.490 --> 01:16:39.629 Sandor Katz: But, you know, I mean, anything, you know, like any kind of meat, you know, any kind of grain, any kind of pulse, any kind of vegetable, any kind of fruit, like, anything we can possibly eat.
419 01:16:39.630 --> 01:16:44.759 Sandor Katz: Can be fermented, and not just in one single way, in a variety of ways.
420 01:16:44.760 --> 01:16:46.280 Sandor Katz: Yeah.
421 01:16:47.250 --> 01:16:50.080 Amanda Davis: Graeme, can I ask a wrap-up question?
422 01:16:52.250 --> 01:16:56.520 Amanda Davis: Yep, thank you. Okay, quick one. Can you have too much fermented food?
423 01:16:59.850 --> 01:17:00.590 Sandor Katz: Sure.
424 01:17:00.670 --> 01:17:19.610 Sandor Katz: Sure, I mean, everything in, everything in moderation. I mean, just think if you just… if you just, like, you could eat bread all day and you wouldn't feel very good. You know, you could drink beer all day and you wouldn't feel too good. You could eat cheese all day and you wouldn't feel too good. So, I mean, everything in moderation. There was a guy who wrote a book that I actually…
425 01:17:19.630 --> 01:17:30.750 Sandor Katz: didn't read, because I thought it was a terrible idea, but the book was called Fermented Man, and it was this guy documenting his year of eating only fermented foods.
426 01:17:30.750 --> 01:17:47.499 Sandor Katz: You know, I just wouldn't recommend that. Like, I just think it's a terrible… I mean, ferment… I mean, fermentation has its place, and it has a huge place, but, you know, who would want to, you know, forego the pleasures of, you know, fresh fruit in the summer and the autumn?
427 01:17:47.500 --> 01:18:00.030 Sandor Katz: You know, based on some idea that it's best to ferment everything. So, I mean, I think that, you know, all things, including fermentation, in moderation.
428 01:18:00.690 --> 01:18:01.520 Amanda Davis: Thank you.
429 01:18:02.270 --> 01:18:10.379 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Tandor, that was a wonderful presentation. Thank you so much. I think you did a lot to certainly improve my ignorance, and
430 01:18:10.510 --> 01:18:17.229 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Or reduce it, as is a better word. And it was a pleasure to have you on, and thank you so much for getting up early for us.
431 01:18:17.230 --> 01:18:26.289 Sandor Katz: Okay, well, it's my pleasure, thank you for having me, thank you for your interest, and for your wonderful questions, and I wish everybody a good day.
432 01:18:26.680 --> 01:18:34.810 Sandor Katz: So, Graham, if there is a link where this will be on the internet, if you send it to me, I would post it on my website, if that's appropriate, or…
433 01:18:34.810 --> 01:18:48.200 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Yep, you get that automatically, and we've got links to your website here, which will be available to people to look, and hopefully it'll produce vast numbers of book sales for you, so…
434 01:18:48.350 --> 01:19:00.959 Sandor Katz: Well, and, you know, please, if any of you are interested or know anyone who might be interested, I do have these, you know, workshops coming up in the UK in May and June.
435 01:19:00.960 --> 01:19:06.660 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Yes, could you… if you could send me those in an email, I'll put them on the website so that everyone can get hold of them.
436 01:19:07.010 --> 01:19:18.610 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: Okay, great. Because then that will spread the word for you. Okay, good. And, next week, I just let people know, because I'm organized to the point where we're going to get a discussion
437 01:19:18.830 --> 01:19:26.250 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: From Lucy Eccles, who is a Community Resilience Officer in Gloucester.
438 01:19:26.470 --> 01:19:41.509 Graham Stoddart-Stones - Great Collaboration - Bembridge: And, I'm hoping that she'll help us all improve our resilience. And in the meantime, have a great week. Thank you for coming. The weather here is fantastic, as you'd expect from the Isle of Wight, and I leave you with a lot of sorrow that you aren't all…
439 01:19:41.890 --> 01:19:52.610 Amanda Davis: Living here. Bye-bye. Thank you. Graham, I work with Lucy, I thoroughly recommend next week's session. Thank you very much, Amanda, that's great stuff. See you all, take care, bye-bye.
440 01:19:52.610 --> 01:19:53.940 Andrew Maliphant Great Collaboration Gloucestershire: Bye-bye. Thanks, Dan.
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