Banter 128: 15Jul26 The very wonderful world of Worms, with Emma Sherlock
importance and diversity of earthworms, ecosystem engineers vital for soil health and sustainable agriculture, ecosystem engineers vital for soil health and sustainable agriculture
Video Timeline:
00:00 - 40:10. Presentation
27:10 - 28:56 1st video - Dr Victor Pop - the largest worm
28:56 - 30:04 Presentation
30:04 - 32:45 2nd video - David Attenborough - a bigger worm?
32:45 - 34:04 Presentation
34:04 - 35:10 3rd video - Danuta Plisko - larger still?
35:10 - 40:10 Preentation
40:10 - 57:18 (end) Q & A
Presentation:
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Meeting Summary:
Jul 15, 2026 11:42 AM London ID: 834 5460 8536
Quick recap
The meeting featured a presentation by Emma, a curator at the Natural History Museum, on the importance and diversity of earthworms. Emma discussed the different types of annelids, focusing on earthworms as ecosystem engineers vital for soil health and sustainable agriculture. She explained the functional groups of earthworms and their roles in nutrient cycling, aeration, and water drainage. Emma highlighted the undervaluation of earthworms and her efforts to promote their study, including a new key for agricultural environments. She also showcased the beauty and fascinating behaviours of various earthworm species worldwide. The presentation was followed by a Q&A session where participants asked about encouraging earthworms in gardens, the impact of intensive farming, and the potential of vermicomposting. Frank, acting as the host, thanked Emma for her informative and passionate talk.
Next steps
Emma
Follow up with the gentleman from the Isle of Wight who organized the vermicomposting event to clarify the reasons why vermicomposting is less developed in the UK compared to the US.
Frank
Consider lobbying the Natural History Museum to produce worm-themed educational toys for children, to promote interest in earthworms.
Sue
Relay the information about encouraging earthworms and vermicomposting to residents and local growers, and suggest they trial vermicomposting on their land.
Summary
Earthworms: Ecosystem Engineers Presentation
Emma delivered a detailed presentation about earthworms, explaining their ecological importance as ecosystem engineers, the different species found in the UK (now known to be 32-33 species), and how they function in soil health. She discussed practical ways to encourage earthworms in gardens and parks, including creating log piles, maintaining moisture, and using compost. The presentation highlighted earthworms' role in sustainable agriculture and forestry, with Emma advocating for greater public awareness and appreciation of these often undervalued creatures.
New Giant Earthworm Species Discovery
Emma Sherlock presented a collection of large earthworms, highlighting the discovery of a new species named Octodrilus permagnus, which can grow up to 35 centimeters. She discussed the global context of earthworm sizes, mentioning that while Lumbricus terrestris is the largest in the UK at up to 40 centimeters, Megascalides australis holds the world record at over 2 meters. Emma also shared footage of giant earthworms in Australia, which can grow up to 6 feet long, and mentioned ongoing research by Sam James and Danuta Plisko who believe they may have found even larger species in the Amazon and South Africa respectively.
Earthworm Diversity and Biology
Emma presented a detailed overview of earthworm diversity, highlighting impressive specimens including a 2-inch thick greenish worm and beautiful blue-colored worms from Nicaragua and Australia. She discussed various defensive mechanisms used by earthworms, such as tail dropping and producing bright yellow defensive secretions, and mentioned reproductive strategies including cocoon formation and burrow housing. Emma concluded by sharing footage of a recently hatched baby earthworm from her compost, emphasizing the fascinating aspects of earthworm biology that make them far from boring.
No-Dig Gardening Benefits for Worms
Emma discussed the benefits of no-dig gardening for earthworms and recommended avoiding digging during dry periods. She suggested creating habitats for worms by incorporating organic matter, compost bins, moisture areas, and untidy garden areas with borders instead of lawns. When asked about harmful earthworm species, Emma identified Pontoscolex corethrurus as a problematic worm that can compact soil, though she noted that European earthworms have caused ecological issues when introduced to North America.
Vermicomposting and Soil Health
Emma discussed the impact of intensive farming practices on earthworm populations, explaining that overproduction without organic matter replacement leads to barren soil conditions. She noted that vermicomposting could help address these issues, sharing insights from a recent vermicomposting event where she learned about its benefits and potential. Mark inquired about the lack of government or council emphasis on vermicomposting in the UK compared to the US, to which Emma responded that she would follow up with Graham and the Isle of Wight organizer to determine the specific reasons for limited adoption.
Vermicomposting Benefits and Applications
The group discussed vermicomposting and its benefits for soil health, with Emma explaining how earthworms work alongside mitochondrial fungi to process minerals. Sue inquired about applying these concepts to non-organic growers, and Emma recommended vermicomposting as a practical solution that could help preserve different types of earthworms rather than just the endogenic ones that survive tilling. Frank suggested lobbying the Natural History Museum to reduce dinosaur toys in favor of worm-themed educational products for children.
Chat:
01:19:48 Sue Burton Battle TC: What about worm week at the Natural History Museum 01:20:13 Sue Burton Battle TC: With special exhibition
Audio-transcript:
234 00:22:52.620 --> 00:22:59.869 Frank Deas, Killearn: How to mitigate the harm we're doing. Okay, I think that's at five past, so I think I can…
235 00:23:00.310 --> 00:23:14.340 Frank Deas, Killearn: Julie introduce Emma, who's the, if I get this right, acting senior creator in charge of free living and parasitic worm collections. And I'm sure she'll explain more about what those are and how they work and,
236 00:23:14.670 --> 00:23:27.630 Frank Deas, Killearn: what we need to think about to improve our appreciation of them, but also what things we can do to assist where necessary in the great work that they do for us. So without further ado, I'll hand you over to Emma.
237 00:23:27.830 --> 00:23:33.749 Emma Sherlock: Oh, thank you very much. I'll just share my Screen with you.
238 00:23:34.070 --> 00:23:35.120 Emma Sherlock: Oh!
239 00:23:35.570 --> 00:23:38.340 Emma Sherlock: So yeah, hopefully that's helpful.
240 00:23:38.340 --> 00:23:38.790 Frank Deas, Killearn: Perfect.
241 00:23:39.270 --> 00:23:46.569 Emma Sherlock: Well, so, yeah, thank you so much for inviting me. I must say, I'm not,
242 00:23:46.780 --> 00:23:59.650 Emma Sherlock: yeah, I'm not someone who gets to give talks very often, because sadly, I don't get asked nearly as much as many of my colleagues who work on mammals, the deep sea.
243 00:23:59.780 --> 00:24:05.380 Emma Sherlock: Fish, amphibians, they get asked all the time, and very sadly, worms die.
244 00:24:05.380 --> 00:24:05.710 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: Thanks.
245 00:24:05.710 --> 00:24:18.969 Emma Sherlock: So I'm very appreciative that Graham thought you might be interested in this talk I gave quite recently that he attended. So I hope that's correct.
246 00:24:19.150 --> 00:24:21.770 Emma Sherlock: And yeah, I
247 00:24:22.170 --> 00:24:26.089 Emma Sherlock: Yeah, I'm so passionate about trying to.
248 00:24:26.340 --> 00:24:44.839 Emma Sherlock: get… get the idea… well, get worms known a lot more around for, yeah, how important they are to us all. But also, as we'll move on to in the second part of the talk, how incredibly fascinating and beautiful
249 00:24:45.040 --> 00:24:55.960 Emma Sherlock: and sometimes gross, but in a very interesting way. But they are, they're not just one species of, sort of, brown animal.
250 00:24:55.960 --> 00:25:06.289 Emma Sherlock: But people sometimes think they are. They are wonderfully diverse and interesting, but also, yeah, fundamental for a sustainable future.
251 00:25:07.750 --> 00:25:09.199 Emma Sherlock: So, just…
252 00:25:09.260 --> 00:25:21.820 Emma Sherlock: Well, yeah, that's it. So actually, that title you mentioned, Frank, actually was an old one. We do have now a parasitic worm curator, so I didn't have to cover.
253 00:25:21.820 --> 00:25:30.729 Emma Sherlock: cover them at the moment, so I am back to being the curator of analytics, which is where I want to be. They are definitely my…
254 00:25:30.820 --> 00:25:33.450 Emma Sherlock: My domain. So,
255 00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:54.560 Emma Sherlock: So yeah, the annelids actually cover the three main groups. So the polychaetes, so our marine worms, which are also very important, I would argue not maybe quite as important for our sustainable future, but all of the all of the annelids are incredibly important. Polychaetes do a huge role in
256 00:25:54.630 --> 00:26:11.469 Emma Sherlock: filtering and decomposing as well in our… in our oceans. But I thought at the bottom I'd highlight the three groups. The one on the far right is my favourite, I think, of the polychaetes in our collection, so obviously you'll be familiar with
257 00:26:11.470 --> 00:26:17.390 Emma Sherlock: Ragworms and lugworms, you know, around the coast that fishermen use.
258 00:26:17.790 --> 00:26:27.189 Emma Sherlock: But this one is a particularly unique, I think, set of set of worms. This is Osidax mucorifloris.
259 00:26:27.350 --> 00:26:37.150 Emma Sherlock: And it's, so osidax is, from the Latin meaning bone eating, and mucroflores is snot flower.
260 00:26:37.150 --> 00:26:48.560 Emma Sherlock: So, it's a bone-eating snot flower, and these are the worms that you find, actually, in whale bones, right down, in the deep, and they're actually degrading.
261 00:26:48.560 --> 00:26:57.200 Emma Sherlock: the bone material and then again releasing that back into the oceans. So they were a relatively new discovery.
262 00:26:57.300 --> 00:27:11.200 Emma Sherlock: And, yeah, I think absolutely fascinating animals, and these are part of our collection at the… at the museum. So, my favourite, polychaetes. But it's actually the clitorate animals
263 00:27:11.330 --> 00:27:16.079 Emma Sherlock: You can see these, little bands, hopefully, on…
264 00:27:16.520 --> 00:27:22.250 Emma Sherlock: On the two pictures on your left, so obviously the leech and the earthworm.
265 00:27:22.790 --> 00:27:33.189 Emma Sherlock: And so these are much more closely related than their polychaete cousins. And yeah, those bands, fleshy bands that I'm sure you've seen on earthworms in your gardens and parks.
266 00:27:33.290 --> 00:27:51.689 Emma Sherlock: These show that they're adults, and that's the, part of their reproduction, that they have the clitellums. And it's these clitella animals that most interest me, and in particular, the earthworms. And as I say, I think these animals are
267 00:27:51.690 --> 00:28:05.319 Emma Sherlock: absolutely fundamental for sustainable agriculture, and forestry, and yeah, they, they are just incredible workers in our soils that I think are hugely
268 00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:25.320 Emma Sherlock: undervalued. So even though the museum, when I first started, wanted me to specialise in either parasitic worms or in polychaetes, I rebelled. And yeah, the area of time I get for research is solely on earthworms.
269 00:28:25.410 --> 00:28:40.640 Emma Sherlock: So, in the UK, we have about 32 different species. Actually, now we think it's 33, just in the last couple of weeks from the West Country. There's been a, a discovery of, quite a large earthworm
270 00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:53.070 Emma Sherlock: species, actually, that's quite well established in a… in a forest that's… one that's… we know well from continental Europe, but hasn't been… been in the UK before.
271 00:28:53.360 --> 00:29:02.280 Emma Sherlock: So we're just, establishing where, some colleagues are gonna go down to the forest and have a good look, but…
272 00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:14.620 Emma Sherlock: Yes, it looks like they have now established themselves. So, yeah, that list might be going up to 33. It's not a big, issue like it can be with,
273 00:29:15.140 --> 00:29:26.039 Emma Sherlock: with other groups for kind of alien invaders or anything like that. This is, another earthworm species which will do similar jobs to the ones we have. It's only from
274 00:29:26.300 --> 00:29:31.720 Emma Sherlock: from Europe doing, yes, but in sort of similar, similar niches.
275 00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:43.750 Emma Sherlock: So yes, it's not a problem. All of our earthworms here were wiped out in the Ice Age, and they got repopulated from refuges in southern Europe.
276 00:29:43.880 --> 00:29:56.600 Emma Sherlock: And then we broke off quite early, which is why we've only got, sort of, 30… 32 or 33 different species, whereas France, for example, has, we think, about 80 different species.
277 00:29:56.810 --> 00:30:01.230 Emma Sherlock: And, other countries sort of similar, similar numbers.
278 00:30:01.340 --> 00:30:02.280 Emma Sherlock: And.
279 00:30:02.620 --> 00:30:09.360 Emma Sherlock: So, yes, that wouldn't be a problem. It would be a problem sometimes, some of the…
280 00:30:09.470 --> 00:30:23.030 Emma Sherlock: Asian species we can get in our hothouses, I'll mention that later. If they were to establish, they can do some slightly different things, and that could be more problematic, but, this species, wouldn't be at all.
281 00:30:23.970 --> 00:30:25.620 Emma Sherlock: But it's,
282 00:30:25.800 --> 00:30:42.269 Emma Sherlock: It's not necessarily just the species that you have, although we're finding out more and more that with the different microbiomes and things these animals have, actually, they are all kind of processing things and processing nutrients in particular in slightly different ways.
283 00:30:42.300 --> 00:30:59.520 Emma Sherlock: But the big thing that you want to know about earthworms in your soil is whether they're carrying out the fundamental roles that you need. So, earthworms are known as ecosystem engineers, and they really do change the environment they're in.
284 00:30:59.590 --> 00:31:02.220 Emma Sherlock: For the better, so.
285 00:31:02.940 --> 00:31:07.850 Emma Sherlock: We used to always split them up into three different groups.
286 00:31:08.120 --> 00:31:23.290 Emma Sherlock: So, if you look at the earthworm on the bottom right, you… I'm sure you'll recognise this worm. So, this is Lumbricus terrestris. In fact, the first earthworm that was ever named. So, in 1758, Linnaeus
287 00:31:23.390 --> 00:31:28.390 Emma Sherlock: Named Lumbricus terrestris and it is an iconic, absolutely iconic.
288 00:31:28.490 --> 00:31:45.910 Emma Sherlock: species. It's got that sort of flattened tail, you can see, so that's how it sort of can hold on in its burrow. If you see a robin really struggling with a worm, it will be almost certainly this one. We also call it the night crawler, because it comes up at night, it draws.
289 00:31:45.910 --> 00:32:02.100 Emma Sherlock: organic material down deep into the soil. It has permanent burrows that it uses. It even makes little offshoots for its cocoons to grow in. Very cool. It, yeah, it pulls leaves right down into the burrow, and
290 00:32:02.140 --> 00:32:11.899 Emma Sherlock: Yeah, these, these anesic worms, as we call them, these large red-headed or black-headed worms, if you see them.
291 00:32:12.180 --> 00:32:21.040 Emma Sherlock: They are fundamental for, yeah, being able for water to be able to drain through the soil in these deep.
292 00:32:21.100 --> 00:32:33.279 Emma Sherlock: vertical burrows, but also again, yeah, pulling organic matter deep into the soil as well. Then on the top line, you'll see these greeny, grey or pinky worms.
293 00:32:33.300 --> 00:32:44.619 Emma Sherlock: These are our endogenic worms, so these are actually the soil feeders. These go through with horizontal burrows, which are really important for bioturbation.
294 00:32:44.770 --> 00:32:58.939 Emma Sherlock: they take in that organic matter that's in the soil, take the soil in, they grind it up, they've got, all earthworms have, like, a cropping gizzard, a bit like a bird. They grind up that soil, make that really fine, nice crumb structure.
295 00:32:59.140 --> 00:33:15.280 Emma Sherlock: And they, with the, symbiotic bacteria in their gut, they can then convert the nutrients into a form plants take up more readily. So these are the real, kind of, powerhouses. And then bottom left, you see a stripey redworm.
296 00:33:15.280 --> 00:33:20.420 Emma Sherlock: So, we've got the stripey ones, which are generally the composters.
297 00:33:20.430 --> 00:33:30.760 Emma Sherlock: and just the little red worms that you'll find basically on the surface. These eat and break down organic matter left on the surface of the
298 00:33:30.780 --> 00:33:35.879 Emma Sherlock: Of the soil and break that down to again release all those nutrients.
299 00:33:36.070 --> 00:33:49.460 Emma Sherlock: back into the soil again. And it's the combination of having these worms working together that means that your system is working well, that you're getting that natural
300 00:33:49.460 --> 00:33:59.199 Emma Sherlock: Yeah, bioturbation, drainage, all the things that, and, and nutrient cycling that you, that you want in your.
301 00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:15.980 Emma Sherlock: in your soil. So any of these surveys where they say, dig a hole, count how many worms, and you'll know if your soil is healthy. That's absolutely not true. There are certain species like Lumbricus rubellus, for example, that we know can survive in really toxic
302 00:34:16.060 --> 00:34:29.830 Emma Sherlock: soils. But also, you need to have the combination of these for all of these jobs to be happening. You don't want just one species in large numbers.
303 00:34:30.949 --> 00:34:39.160 Emma Sherlock: And, just in the diagram, to make it a… a bit more visual, you can see there are some of those vertical burrows with a worm in it.
304 00:34:39.380 --> 00:34:53.729 Emma Sherlock: You can see those horizontal barrows coming in, and then you can see the areas like logs on the surface, which earthworms love. They're, a refuge, but also a source of organic matter. There's a cow pat, which
305 00:34:53.750 --> 00:35:07.309 Emma Sherlock: Composting worms, if they're not in the compost, they were like that, even knots in the trees. Earthworms can climb up to those, and those quite often have a little area of organic matter that sort of collects in there.
306 00:35:07.620 --> 00:35:12.269 Emma Sherlock: And, yeah, we get some of the epijate worms in there as well, so.
307 00:35:13.330 --> 00:35:22.679 Emma Sherlock: That's what really makes for a really good functioning system. And now we know actually the picture is much bigger than that. So instead of.
308 00:35:22.950 --> 00:35:34.020 Emma Sherlock: Breaking it down into these three groups, we now actually have five to six different groups, and all of them are really fundamental.
309 00:35:34.410 --> 00:35:44.279 Emma Sherlock: and all have yes, jobs that need fulfilling to make sure that everything is functioning as it as it should be.
310 00:35:45.330 --> 00:36:02.610 Emma Sherlock: So, as I mentioned, they are ecosystem engineers, so they're aerating the soil, creating these vital water drainage channels, and enabling plant roots to penetrate deeper in the soil, breaking down the dead organic matter with these gut microorganisms.
311 00:36:02.720 --> 00:36:19.849 Emma Sherlock: breaking down the minerals in the soil as well, which is so important, converting all these nutrients to a form the plants can take up more readily. And, of course, even outside of that, they are a vital food source for so many of
312 00:36:19.850 --> 00:36:23.549 Emma Sherlock: of our animals and animals that potentially people are
313 00:36:23.560 --> 00:36:27.600 Emma Sherlock: I'm more invested in as as as well like everybody.
314 00:36:27.740 --> 00:36:33.580 Emma Sherlock: Seems to, you know, love all the bird species. You've got moles, badgers.
315 00:36:33.600 --> 00:36:48.520 Emma Sherlock: you know, a huge set, but also other invertebrates. Even some of our leeches rely on earthworms, our amphibians as well. A huge number of animals rely on earthworms as an amazing protein source.
316 00:36:49.050 --> 00:36:56.139 Emma Sherlock: And, even some flies, which obviously, quite often, less.
317 00:36:56.220 --> 00:37:12.389 Emma Sherlock: less loved as well, but, I was interested to see, this specimen, Collagenosa, a very common earthworm, again, in the… in the UK, but you can see two fly larvae coming out of this one. I… I,
318 00:37:12.620 --> 00:37:25.839 Emma Sherlock: did originally think those, fly larvae kind of look quite cute, in a way, with those little eyes they've got poking out, so I, I sent the picture to Erica McAllister, the fly girl.
319 00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:35.680 Emma Sherlock: at the museum, but she told me, actually, they were anal scoots, I think. So, yeah, I turned less cute after that.
320 00:37:35.970 --> 00:37:41.119 Emma Sherlock: But, but yeah, I think the thing that's.
321 00:37:41.310 --> 00:37:45.859 Emma Sherlock: Really drove me at the start as well with being so passionate about.
322 00:37:46.050 --> 00:38:04.859 Emma Sherlock: earthworms was the fact that they are so undervalued, I think, maybe more so now, but certainly, so these images are back from 2009, when we started the Earthworm Society of Britain and started basically the recording scheme.
323 00:38:05.250 --> 00:38:06.479 Emma Sherlock: And,
324 00:38:07.300 --> 00:38:15.409 Emma Sherlock: Earthwork, well, we in the UK have, like, amazing system of amateur naturalists. I don't think anywhere in the world.
325 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:29.170 Emma Sherlock: There's such a passionate group of people up and down the country who are willing to record natural history all around them. It's absolutely fabulous. But for some reason, even though there were keys
326 00:38:29.310 --> 00:38:40.370 Emma Sherlock: to earthworms that have been at the Uk back since about those are popular sites. But back in the 19 twenties, and certainly good keys since the 19 sixties.
327 00:38:40.720 --> 00:38:56.220 Emma Sherlock: But yes, they just haven't been taken up by the public in the same way as other similar groups. So yeah, that's the number of records that we had for the UK from a common woodlouse.
328 00:38:56.280 --> 00:39:02.819 Emma Sherlock: But for an earthworm, one of our most common earthworms, it was unbelievably poor.
329 00:39:03.060 --> 00:39:04.200 Emma Sherlock: So.
330 00:39:04.530 --> 00:39:22.770 Emma Sherlock: so yeah, we started off the recording scheme for the UK, and we produced a key, to the earthworms of the UK, and now things… things are now becoming a lot better, but I'm really passionate about making earthworms accessible to… to people, and really trying to…
331 00:39:22.770 --> 00:39:30.949 Emma Sherlock: Promote that not only are the numbers counted, as I mentioned, but actually they're not that hard to get to species.
332 00:39:31.090 --> 00:39:32.030 Emma Sherlock: And.
333 00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:51.589 Emma Sherlock: we yeah, people can do it. People can do it. And and it's really, really important, I believe, for, as I mentioned, for a sustainable future, especially in agriculture. So my main project at the moment is hopefully next year my new key to the earthworms of agricultural environments in Europe.
334 00:39:51.650 --> 00:39:54.470 Emma Sherlock: Will come out and I really hope this.
335 00:39:54.560 --> 00:40:13.669 Emma Sherlock: generates, yeah, a lot more investment in letting earthworms do the bulk of the heavy lifting for us and making our soils so the rich, nutritious place they should be. I was kind of inspired when I went to
336 00:40:13.870 --> 00:40:20.460 Emma Sherlock: Actually, maybe I shouldn't say where, but I went to a certain region.
337 00:40:20.730 --> 00:40:23.190 Emma Sherlock: And I checked.
338 00:40:23.730 --> 00:40:26.080 Emma Sherlock: They're they're agricultural.
339 00:40:26.310 --> 00:40:42.410 Emma Sherlock: fields, and after checking, I think it was about 4 different farms we went to, I found not a… no, no, maybe 3. 3 different farms we went to. I found not a single earthworm, which means that all of their
340 00:40:42.530 --> 00:40:44.850 Emma Sherlock: Produce that they're producing.
341 00:40:45.070 --> 00:40:50.190 Emma Sherlock: All was being grown basically in a vat of.
342 00:40:50.990 --> 00:40:53.780 Emma Sherlock: Yeah, the fertilizer and.
343 00:40:53.910 --> 00:40:56.299 Emma Sherlock: I guess pesticides.
344 00:40:56.910 --> 00:41:16.139 Emma Sherlock: That's not going to make delicious food to eat, but it's also not sustainable for the future. And yet these animals will shift huge amounts of earth. They will do the bioturbation for us if allowed to.
345 00:41:16.440 --> 00:41:21.980 Emma Sherlock: That's me on my high horse, not being obviously a
346 00:41:23.040 --> 00:41:28.260 Emma Sherlock: an agricultural specialist, so I'm sure things might not move as fast, or…
347 00:41:28.300 --> 00:41:36.720 Emma Sherlock: You might not be able to do things in the same bulk, but there must be a way to integrate earthworms much more into
348 00:41:36.740 --> 00:41:54.070 Emma Sherlock: sustainable… sustainable farming. So, yeah, I'm really passionate about, hopefully, getting this implemented. So there'll be two keys as part of this, one for arable and pasture, and one for vineyards, orchards, and olive groves, because actually the earthworms can be a bit different.
349 00:41:54.070 --> 00:41:57.830 Emma Sherlock: In each of those, and we want to keep the keys as small as possible.
350 00:41:57.830 --> 00:42:04.089 Emma Sherlock: To be able to enable people to use the keys as easily as possible.
351 00:42:04.190 --> 00:42:08.979 Emma Sherlock: So yes, that, that's my kind of pet project.
352 00:42:09.260 --> 00:42:10.600 Emma Sherlock: At the moment.
353 00:42:11.060 --> 00:42:15.799 Emma Sherlock: But I guess moving closer to home again, the thing people ask me.
354 00:42:16.150 --> 00:42:25.230 Emma Sherlock: most about, I guess, is how many different species there are in a garden, what they can do to encourage more species into their garden.
355 00:42:25.290 --> 00:42:37.589 Emma Sherlock: So there's actually a lot of different species you can find in your local parks and gardens, especially if you have a lot of different niches and habitats.
356 00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:38.910 Emma Sherlock: For them.
357 00:42:39.950 --> 00:42:58.020 Emma Sherlock: So, actually, in total, 27 of the 32 UK species have been found in parks and gardens, so that's absolutely huge. Obviously, that isn't the regular figure, but looking back through all of our records, that is…
358 00:42:58.020 --> 00:43:10.859 Emma Sherlock: is, as the situation. So, generally speaking, though, 8 to 10 different species could be found in an individual garden, and in parks, obviously, even more, if you do, again, have
359 00:43:11.040 --> 00:43:29.590 Emma Sherlock: more diverse habitats within that area. So, for example, in London, my small garden, over four years, I found 10 different species, and they do fall into those differing groups. So.
360 00:43:30.090 --> 00:43:49.759 Emma Sherlock: to identify earthworms to species, you do have to preserve them, but to be able to tell if you've got those original 3 functional groups, you don't, and it's a fun thing to do in your garden. So if you are looking in the soil and you come across an earthworm.
361 00:43:49.800 --> 00:44:00.449 Emma Sherlock: Check if it's an adult or not, so if it's got that saddle, and some really small worms will have saddles, so it doesn't matter on size, just check if they've got the saddle.
362 00:44:00.540 --> 00:44:10.890 Emma Sherlock: Any of the greeny, grey, pinky ones, you know you've got these endogenic worms that are making these horizontal burrows, and they're…
363 00:44:10.890 --> 00:44:20.640 Emma Sherlock: processing through your… your soil, and releasing all the… the nutrients you want. If you've got those larger, sort of over 20cm
364 00:44:20.640 --> 00:44:28.050 Emma Sherlock: Type worms with either a dark black head, sort of dark brown head, or a deep red head.
365 00:44:28.330 --> 00:44:35.860 Emma Sherlock: Then you know you've got the anesic worms, so they're producing those vertical burrows that are really important.
366 00:44:36.810 --> 00:44:54.629 Emma Sherlock: Or if you've got the smaller red or striped red, worms that are either in compost or on, closer to the surface of the soil, then you know you've got your epigeques. So that's a really nice thing that,
367 00:44:55.480 --> 00:45:04.899 Emma Sherlock: that, that everyone can, can do and, and yeah, get you looking at worms too, which is, which is always fun. So in local.
368 00:45:04.900 --> 00:45:21.509 Emma Sherlock: parks and… and gardens, the way to obviously encourage more species are to have areas like log piles in parks, or in your garden, just a few logs in an… in an area. That's fabulous. I know at the,
369 00:45:21.710 --> 00:45:33.029 Emma Sherlock: A lady at the start of this mentioned about the soils being dry. Obviously, there's, we've had, yeah, really, really, dry.
370 00:45:33.030 --> 00:45:47.200 Emma Sherlock: time at the moment, and that's difficult. Worms will go down in deeper into the soil, and, what we call east of 8, it's the same as hibernation, just for dry conditions. So, some of the,
371 00:45:47.290 --> 00:46:06.100 Emma Sherlock: the soil feeders and the anesthetics would just go further down, wrap themselves up in mucus, and then they can last it out. The epigenetics, it's harder, and that's where refuges do come in. So, if you've got partially rotten logs and things, they can sometimes get to the center, where there might still be
372 00:46:06.500 --> 00:46:11.280 Emma Sherlock: Moisture, if you've got plant pots around, they can get under there.
373 00:46:11.700 --> 00:46:21.260 Emma Sherlock: And sometimes then be able to get a bit of sort of shade and moisture could be kept a bit more under there.
374 00:46:21.390 --> 00:46:32.660 Emma Sherlock: Yeah, the dry conditions are very difficult for earthworms because, yeah, they breathe basically through their skin. They need to be moist for oxygen to diffuse through.
375 00:46:32.670 --> 00:46:46.539 Emma Sherlock: So, yes, they… in these really dry conditions, they do need to… to estivate deep in the… in the soil, or find a refuge, because they… they will be in… in trouble otherwise. But they are designed
376 00:46:47.040 --> 00:46:58.520 Emma Sherlock: for that. So, cocoons are much hardier than the worms themselves, so they will have left cocoons in areas which hopefully then, when the conditions are right, will hatch out again.
377 00:46:58.710 --> 00:47:11.079 Emma Sherlock: So it won't wipe out our earthworm species, but… but yeah, having little refuges is always… is always nice, and if these log piles are in the shade, that's… that's even better.
378 00:47:11.620 --> 00:47:23.589 Emma Sherlock: I had plant pots, as I remembered, or bricks, things like that help. Having leaf litter trees, leaving your mowings, not being, like, massively tidy in your gardens is…
379 00:47:23.590 --> 00:47:32.330 Emma Sherlock: is good for earthworms. You're leaving that lovely organic matter for them to then decompose and release back into the soil. Ponds also
380 00:47:32.330 --> 00:47:50.259 Emma Sherlock: fabulous. Even if they're tiny, like this one in the garden, that still, brings moisture and enables a different variety of species to… to thrive. And of course, composts are absolutely fabulous. Hopefully all the local, parks and things are all using
381 00:47:50.270 --> 00:47:53.320 Emma Sherlock: Compost and if you've got a little.
382 00:47:53.660 --> 00:48:13.069 Emma Sherlock: yeah, a house and you, you know, on a small garden, you don't want a big compost, you can even get these little posh pads. I've got a couple of posh pads, and the kids love it too, and they're nice little houses for them. They get through all your, all your veg and obviously give you absolutely fabulous
383 00:48:13.100 --> 00:48:21.899 Emma Sherlock: Vermicompost, which is the best compost you could possibly get, so… I really advocate having the
384 00:48:22.060 --> 00:48:33.320 Emma Sherlock: having the… the… the compost. Sorry, this slide didn't work very well. I didn't realize the others hadn't added. There should be four papers on here, but there's many papers, basically, just…
385 00:48:33.320 --> 00:48:47.399 Emma Sherlock: showing that having earthworms in your soil means your plants grow much, much faster, and they're more healthy, and they're better. There's huge amounts of published research
386 00:48:47.410 --> 00:48:49.929 Emma Sherlock: To, to show this.
387 00:48:50.010 --> 00:49:07.220 Emma Sherlock: But then the last part of the talk, I was just then going to wow you with also the beauty of earthworms. They're not just fundamentally important, but they're also incredible. And the person who really inspired me
388 00:49:07.240 --> 00:49:17.920 Emma Sherlock: To take on the mantle of earthworms was my first scientific visitor I hosted at the museum. His name was Victor Popp, just an absolute
389 00:49:18.230 --> 00:49:28.190 Emma Sherlock: idol kind of, of, of mine. He's just so inspirational and so giving of his time. I, I spent, three
390 00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:48.260 Emma Sherlock: three separate study trips with him in Romania, staying at the institute he worked at, and he took me up into the Carpathian Mountains, where he first discovered the biggest earthworms in in Europe. There the particular biggest is Octodrilus permagnus. But there's actually a range
391 00:49:48.420 --> 00:49:51.599 Emma Sherlock: Of species that are all like.
392 00:49:51.720 --> 00:49:58.350 Emma Sherlock: Really, really impressive animals and hopefully I can show you a bit of a.
393 00:49:58.520 --> 00:50:01.090 Emma Sherlock: A video of him, Gebeka's.
394 00:50:01.340 --> 00:50:03.880 Emma Sherlock: He is just, yeah, an incredible person.
395 00:50:03.880 --> 00:50:04.400 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: Yes.
396 00:50:08.780 --> 00:50:15.259 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: Here we are, part of my collection. I keep the worms in the glass wires.
397 00:50:16.180 --> 00:50:24.089 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: One particularity of my collection is that the worms are almost all very stride, very easy to handle.
398 00:50:24.410 --> 00:50:31.259 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: Any worm discovery is exciting, but some worms make living legends of those who discover them.
399 00:50:31.610 --> 00:50:49.910 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: I will start with the shocking piece of my collection. It's hard to describe the feeling of a specialist when he finds something new. I was astonished because it was so, so long. He can be as long as one and a half meter.
400 00:50:50.630 --> 00:50:58.710 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: When I examined this animal in the field, I observed the clitellum was unusual.
401 00:50:59.020 --> 00:51:17.930 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: It seemed to show me that I deal with an unknown species. And happily, it was really a new species, and I described it and named it Octodrilus permagnus, permagnus meaning the largest, the longest one.
402 00:51:23.970 --> 00:51:35.910 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: It is long. It has at least 30, 35 centimeters now. I can tell it's the goal of the taxonomist to find and describe something new.
403 00:51:36.720 --> 00:51:38.690 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: And if it happened to be
404 00:51:40.540 --> 00:51:47.510 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: And to be very interesting, happiness is complete.
405 00:51:50.330 --> 00:51:53.339 Emma Sherlock: So that was, Victor showing you.
406 00:51:53.710 --> 00:52:09.029 Emma Sherlock: the largest earthworms in Europe, but if we look at the largest around the world, so in the UK, Lumbricus terrestris is our largest species, which can get up to an absolute maximum of 40cm.
407 00:52:09.080 --> 00:52:23.359 Emma Sherlock: But in the world, currently, the owner of the… the status of being the largest is Megascalides australis, which is… can get at, sort of, over 2 meters. It's obviously very hard to say an exact size.
408 00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:34.069 Emma Sherlock: Because they do, obviously, as they move, they constrict and then elongate. And so, yes, it's hard to measure them.
409 00:52:34.430 --> 00:52:53.080 Emma Sherlock: But that's what currently has the title, and there's a great in life in the undergrowth. There's a great clip that David Attenborough does. I'm not sure if the sound is great on here, but it's worth just showing you because it's just a fabulous clip of these amazing animals.
410 00:53:05.370 --> 00:53:15.899 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: Like so many of the inhabitants of the undergrowth, earthworms can only live in a moist environment, but they are found in soils of every continent except Antarctica.
411 00:53:16.790 --> 00:53:22.089 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: This small valley in southern Australia is home to one of the rarest.
412 00:53:22.240 --> 00:53:25.679 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: And the most extraordinary of all earthworms.
413 00:53:25.990 --> 00:53:27.510 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: I know they're around.
414 00:53:28.460 --> 00:53:29.729 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: Because I can hear them.
415 00:53:30.640 --> 00:53:31.380 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: Okay.
416 00:53:34.280 --> 00:53:42.919 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: Those gurgling noises, believe it or not, are being made by giant earthworms as they squelch along their water-filled burrows.
417 00:53:50.120 --> 00:53:55.750 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: The vibrations of my footsteps are enough to stir them into activity.
418 00:53:58.170 --> 00:54:05.569 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: They never come to the surface, but in places where there's been a small landslip, you can sometimes find their burrows.
419 00:54:12.900 --> 00:54:20.759 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: They are over an inch in diameter, and in them, if you're very lucky, you may occasionally find one of these.
420 00:54:22.020 --> 00:54:23.020 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: This.
421 00:54:24.090 --> 00:54:28.850 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: This is one of their egg cocoons, and it's enormous.
422 00:54:29.370 --> 00:54:31.130 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: I hold it up against the light.
423 00:54:31.320 --> 00:54:33.970 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: I can see the young worm inside.
424 00:54:34.070 --> 00:54:38.770 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: Wriggling. It'll take a year for this to develop.
425 00:54:38.890 --> 00:54:45.650 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: And when the young one finally does break free, It's already 20 centimeters long.
426 00:54:46.260 --> 00:54:47.130 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: Huge.
427 00:54:49.300 --> 00:54:56.030 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: It will take a further 5 years to reach full size and become this remarkable creature.
428 00:54:56.700 --> 00:54:58.370 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: So the question is.
429 00:54:58.760 --> 00:55:07.760 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: How long is a giant earthworm? Well, it's not an easy question to answer. The fact of the matter is, they're rather delicate creatures.
430 00:55:07.870 --> 00:55:13.729 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: and they break if I was so unfeeling as to try and stretch it
431 00:55:14.130 --> 00:55:20.479 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: Well, I guess it might stretch to a couple of meters, almost six feet long.
432 00:55:23.500 --> 00:55:24.889 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: How long they live?
433 00:55:25.210 --> 00:55:28.670 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: Well, some say up to 20 years, but we really don't know.
434 00:55:29.200 --> 00:55:32.359 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: And we certainly don't know how they managed to mate.
435 00:55:32.540 --> 00:55:36.849 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: Deep underground, as they sculpt their way through their lonely tunnels.
436 00:55:39.710 --> 00:55:44.380 Emma Sherlock: So that was, yeah, that was our, the largest.
437 00:55:44.440 --> 00:55:59.469 Emma Sherlock: earthworm known in the… in the world, and yeah, an absolutely incredible animal. But there is some competition, because, as David Attenborough said, and we said earlier, it's very hard to actually measure
438 00:55:59.500 --> 00:56:18.810 Emma Sherlock: how exactly how long that earthworm species is. And Sam James, who's done a lot of work in the Amazon, he's found this giant earthworm cast, and he thinks the earthworm that produced that casting is probably larger.
439 00:56:18.860 --> 00:56:27.630 Emma Sherlock: than Megascalides australis, so he is in the hunt for… for that worm, and thinks it would definitely be bigger.
440 00:56:28.490 --> 00:56:33.909 Emma Sherlock: And then Danuta Plisko from South Africa, another.
441 00:56:34.020 --> 00:56:44.759 Emma Sherlock: Fabulous legend in earthworm, taxonomy, she works in South Africa and believes her,
442 00:56:45.380 --> 00:56:46.929 Emma Sherlock: Rappi?
443 00:56:47.030 --> 00:56:56.940 Emma Sherlock: it could be bigger again. So just a very last, if you can indulge me one more time, just a very last little video clip, if that's okay.
444 00:57:00.990 --> 00:57:19.929 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: To dig for air forms very close to rhino is not safe. You never know what can happen, especially when you are digging, not looking what the animal is thinking.
445 00:57:22.330 --> 00:57:25.639 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: This not danger, it's pleasure.
446 00:57:28.670 --> 00:57:37.350 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: I started from the scratch, just having a few specimens to describe. Now I have got this 50,000.
447 00:57:37.480 --> 00:57:43.840 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: I can tell you about 1 collection which was the most magnificent.
448 00:57:43.890 --> 00:58:02.099 Audio shared by Emma Sherlock: This is just beauty. It was greenish and thick, about two inches. And it was huge. It was beautiful. I can give you a picture if you like.
449 00:58:06.410 --> 00:58:20.850 Emma Sherlock: So, yes, which one of these worms will end up being the largest? I'm not sure, but they are unbelievably impressive, impressive animals. But, yeah, it's not just about the size of earthworms, too. It's…
450 00:58:20.850 --> 00:58:26.769 Emma Sherlock: the colouration as well. So this is a worm I described from Nicaragua.
451 00:58:26.840 --> 00:58:35.399 Emma Sherlock: And it's a beautiful blue colour. So we called it Azul because it's blue in Spanish.
452 00:58:35.570 --> 00:58:52.090 Emma Sherlock: sadly, there are other blue worms. This is a very blue worm from Australia, Teres walkeri, and yeah, this is fabulously blue. I believe it's even got on one of the, sort of, tourist attraction things, which is amazing for
453 00:58:52.190 --> 00:58:58.270 Emma Sherlock: For worms. When I talk about blue worms, I do quite often tend to talk about this one.
454 00:58:58.460 --> 00:59:10.600 Emma Sherlock: But that is, that is bias. I, I will, I will stop. But I think the most beautiful earthworm to be found was found again by Sam James, this time from the Philippines.
455 00:59:10.800 --> 00:59:13.730 Emma Sherlock: This is,
456 00:59:14.290 --> 00:59:25.979 Emma Sherlock: Middletoni, and Archifera teema, Middletoni, and this we call the fried egg worm. I think you can probably see why, but it's also got that bluey tint.
457 00:59:26.160 --> 00:59:40.779 Emma Sherlock: but yeah, just fabulous colours. I think it's the most beautiful worm. But even from Kew Gardens, I mentioned we have, introduced species,
458 00:59:41.240 --> 00:59:55.209 Emma Sherlock: from, well, again, not bad because they're restricted to the hothouses. But yes, these are Asian species. They call them sometimes the jumping worms because they're really vigorous. They can actually sort of leap in the air.
459 00:59:55.230 --> 01:00:03.849 Emma Sherlock: they move in quite a different way. They're fabulous to… to see, but also they've got incredible iridescence. This picture isn't actually doing it,
460 01:00:03.900 --> 01:00:08.489 Emma Sherlock: Just this, they've got beautiful iridescence,
461 01:00:08.540 --> 01:00:16.750 Emma Sherlock: On them, we've also got our own, glowing worm as well that you get here. It's got, proper luminous.
462 01:00:16.760 --> 01:00:35.449 Emma Sherlock: Qualities, microscolics, phosphorus. I'm trying at the moment to get, some really nice, footage of it, because no one's really captured it, but it really, if you turn all the lights out, it really glows, and there's a, an excellent example of them that lives in, in France as well.
463 01:00:35.450 --> 01:00:44.960 Emma Sherlock: So just fabulous qualities. They've also got the gory factor. This one has been preserved, actually cannibalizing another different species of earthworm.
464 01:00:45.190 --> 01:00:49.469 Emma Sherlock: So if you like the gore, that's there too.
465 01:00:50.530 --> 01:00:54.719 Emma Sherlock: And I think they're incredible too, how they can evade.
466 01:00:54.750 --> 01:01:13.160 Emma Sherlock: predation, they can drop their own tails, or some certain species, so this is, Aporectidae, a longary UK species, and this is it dropping its tail, so then, if it drops its tail, that tail end will keep twitching, so the birds will hopefully go for that tail end, and they'll be able to escape.
467 01:01:13.200 --> 01:01:16.990 Emma Sherlock: And our common composters are able
468 01:01:17.590 --> 01:01:28.760 Emma Sherlock: to produce this bright yellow goo. I'm sure you've probably seen it if they get irritated. And that, again, is a really great way to avoid predation.
469 01:01:29.020 --> 01:01:38.750 Emma Sherlock: So yeah, they can use really clever kind of tactics. Anyone that thinks earthworms are boring, they're really not.
470 01:01:40.410 --> 01:01:53.410 Emma Sherlock: Oh, and I just put this in at the end as, this hatched out the other day. I was just seeing if, a little baby earthworm from my compost, took a little cocoon, and
471 01:01:53.410 --> 01:02:03.600 Emma Sherlock: it hatched out, which I was very pleased to see. But yes, just to say as well, they have like really interesting reproductive strategies.
472 01:02:03.600 --> 01:02:17.459 Emma Sherlock: Lumbricus terrestris, in fact, they sort of line up together to make sure they're the right size to mate with the right worm. And yeah, they can produce these incredible little cocoons, which are much hardier, as I mentioned.
473 01:02:17.460 --> 01:02:19.889 Emma Sherlock: Than than they themselves even.
474 01:02:19.950 --> 01:02:34.910 Emma Sherlock: And then the, young can hatch out from that, and Lumbricus terrestris, again, even makes, as I mentioned, those little nooks in their, in their burrows to, to, to house their, their cocoons. So…
475 01:02:35.490 --> 01:02:44.580 Emma Sherlock: So yeah, hopefully I've, been able to inspire you. It sounds like you guys are,
476 01:02:44.690 --> 01:02:55.230 Emma Sherlock: an excellent audience in that you maybe appreciated the earthworms already, which is incredible. But yeah, hopefully a few more
477 01:02:55.790 --> 01:03:02.549 Emma Sherlock: that you have to, to maybe encourage others to, yeah, appreciate our little friends too.
478 01:03:02.730 --> 01:03:03.870 Emma Sherlock: Thank you.
479 01:03:04.150 --> 01:03:09.499 Frank Deas, Killearn: Thank you so much, Emma. I think we'll throw it open for questions. I was just interested.
480 01:03:09.540 --> 01:03:33.119 Frank Deas, Killearn: You did talk about the fact that log piles can be a refuge. Is there more? We keep hearing about the other things we can do. The untidy gardens are good for a range of invertebrates and therefore for the animals that feed on them and so on. So other than log piles, are there other things we should be doing or could be doing? Are there the wrong times of year to dig over? We're trying to move to a no dig.
481 01:03:33.120 --> 01:03:37.190 Frank Deas, Killearn: gardening. What are the best or worst times of year for digging gardens?
482 01:03:37.230 --> 01:03:39.499 Frank Deas, Killearn: From the perspective of preserving worms?
483 01:03:40.140 --> 01:03:45.260 Emma Sherlock: Well, yes, so ideally the no dig is the best for.
484 01:03:45.280 --> 01:04:02.819 Emma Sherlock: For earthworms, but yeah, digging them up when they're estivating wouldn't be ideal. So when the soil is really dry, it's, it's best not to uncover them, but also to sort of enable the wetter parts of the soil to then become.
485 01:04:02.820 --> 01:04:12.030 Emma Sherlock: drier as such, so yes, I would ideally avoid digging in those times, but in terms of encouraging
486 01:04:12.070 --> 01:04:17.329 Emma Sherlock: Worms into the garden is definitely, as you mentioned, it's the untidy.
487 01:04:17.360 --> 01:04:27.769 Emma Sherlock: kind of system. It's having more organic matter for them, having compost bins, having areas of moisture, like, little ponds, or…
488 01:04:27.770 --> 01:04:42.719 Emma Sherlock: things like, things like that there to be able, for them to be, yeah, a lot more moisture to be, stored, but also having areas of, sort of, border as opposed to lawn. They'll, they'll have different,
489 01:04:42.910 --> 01:04:55.450 Emma Sherlock: levels of organic matter and having pots and things like that, just areas for earthworms to kind of shelter in when they need it.
490 01:04:55.590 --> 01:04:58.650 Emma Sherlock: But yeah, that'd be the main things I'd, I'd say.
491 01:04:59.090 --> 01:05:01.200 Frank Deas, Killearn: Stuart, and then Ben?
492 01:05:01.720 --> 01:05:06.080 Cllr Stuart Withington Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: I'd like to say thanks for a really entertaining talk.
493 01:05:06.470 --> 01:05:07.190 Emma Sherlock: Oh, thanks.
494 01:05:07.190 --> 01:05:10.140 Cllr Stuart Withington Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: And I really admire your enthusiasm.
495 01:05:10.780 --> 01:05:12.220 Emma Sherlock: Thank you!
496 01:05:12.220 --> 01:05:14.820 Cllr Stuart Withington Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: But my my first question is,
497 01:05:15.140 --> 01:05:17.179 Cllr Stuart Withington Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: Are there any bad earthworms?
498 01:05:18.200 --> 01:05:32.049 Emma Sherlock: So, in the world, yes, none of the bad earthworms are as bad as necessarily other species, but yes, like Pontus golex, Corythurus, it's, an earthworm which is
499 01:05:32.300 --> 01:05:51.640 Emma Sherlock: Around a lot of the globe, so although it's more a sort of South American species, you can find it in Asia and some areas in Europe it's coming into as well, and it's actually known to compact the soil a bit more, so it's not the most ideal species to
500 01:05:51.830 --> 01:05:54.990 Emma Sherlock: To have, it's… Yes, it.
501 01:05:55.540 --> 01:05:56.540 Emma Sherlock: it's…
502 01:05:56.820 --> 01:06:16.269 Emma Sherlock: It's still doing some of the good sort of nutrient cycling, but yeah, nowhere near as much, and it's adding compaction to the soil. But obviously, there are problems of even our European species in North America in some of their forests, because
503 01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:17.320 Emma Sherlock: And.
504 01:06:17.360 --> 01:06:32.759 Emma Sherlock: it is always good to have earthworms where they should be, rather than where they shouldn't be, and in some areas of North America, they had a forestry system where they needed leaf litter to kind of build up to a high level, and it protected
505 01:06:32.760 --> 01:06:48.030 Emma Sherlock: some delicate saplings and things that had very delicate, bark systems. And I know earthworms, European earthworms, were then introduced in very large numbers, I think, for fishermen and things like that. They wanted Lumbricus terrestris and
506 01:06:48.050 --> 01:06:51.650 Emma Sherlock: Worms like that, and it was just easier for them.
507 01:06:51.680 --> 01:07:02.439 Emma Sherlock: And they've then taken over. All the leaf litter levels have absolutely plummeted, because that's their bread and butter, that's what they love, exposing all these delicate
508 01:07:02.500 --> 01:07:18.629 Emma Sherlock: plants, and then, their mammals have come through and wiped out areas with these, with these delicate saplings. So there has been a lot of talk from North America about the European earthworms having a, a big negative
509 01:07:18.730 --> 01:07:22.849 Emma Sherlock: Impact, but generally speaking, in terms of earthworms.
510 01:07:22.910 --> 01:07:39.779 Emma Sherlock: It's only really pontoscolics that people say is a is doing negative things to the to the soil in general. But obviously we have problems with other worms. So we've got the New Zealand flatworm that's having a negative effect, especially in Northern Ireland.
511 01:07:39.850 --> 01:07:58.549 Emma Sherlock: actually on our earthworm populations, because it's obviously it is an alien invader that's come in. And yeah, and it's really preying on particularly our anesic earthworms. But we're finding out all in Northern Ireland in our recent surveys. Actually, all the earthworm numbers are down.
512 01:07:58.840 --> 01:08:04.119 Emma Sherlock: So, so yes, there are a few sort of not quite so beneficial ways.
513 01:08:04.120 --> 01:08:07.599 Cllr Stuart Withington Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: In general, all our garden worms are goodies.
514 01:08:07.600 --> 01:08:10.360 Emma Sherlock: Oh, absolutely, yes, 100%.
515 01:08:11.550 --> 01:08:12.830 Cllr Stuart Withington Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: Thank you.
516 01:08:13.840 --> 01:08:14.390 Frank Deas, Killearn: Then…
517 01:08:14.930 --> 01:08:20.479 Ben Wielgus: Yeah, just to echo his thoughts, Emma, thank you so much. I mean, you joked a bit at the start that
518 01:08:20.479 --> 01:08:36.099 Ben Wielgus: your paleontologist colleagues tend to get invited to more talks than you do, but there's a real relevance to this, and I think we all see earthworms, but it's always very difficult to appreciate and understand the differences. Like, I didn't realize there were different kinds that aerated versus, you know, did different shifts, so that was fascinating.
519 01:08:36.100 --> 01:08:37.180 Emma Sherlock: Thanks.
520 01:08:37.390 --> 01:08:54.010 Ben Wielgus: You've talked about how we can help earthworms, but implicit in what you were saying about the area you visited, there's just, you know, there are dead areas of soil. Is that more the sort of the deep plowing that's causing the issue, or is that literally just pesticide use that's kind of having unintended consequences?
521 01:08:54.649 --> 01:09:15.779 Emma Sherlock: I think in that particular area, it's because the farming has been way too intensive. There's been no recovery. I think because the particular produce that they are producing is only allowed to be grown there, I think. And I think they are overproducing and overproducing and yet not allowing organic matter to then be.
522 01:09:15.919 --> 01:09:28.129 Emma Sherlock: put back into the soil and back in, and so, yeah, then they've just basically got sand and chemicals. I think that is the… the thing. So, yeah, I guess it's hard to…
523 01:09:28.669 --> 01:09:41.039 Emma Sherlock: because I don't know about the economics of everything, I guess those things are maybe hard to… hard to manage, but it's a real eye-opener of just how it's best not, if possible, to do
524 01:09:41.039 --> 01:09:58.349 Emma Sherlock: agriculture, you… I know I saw… there was a thing about vineyards with earthworms, and they were saying once they started really looking at earthworms and vermicompost going in, actually, even their wine tasted better. I think everything tastes better if it's…
525 01:09:58.469 --> 01:10:05.239 Emma Sherlock: Yeah, if it's done in a much more natural way and, and earthworms just do all those jobs.
526 01:10:05.559 --> 01:10:16.989 Emma Sherlock: for you. So, yeah, it was just a massive eye-opener to me, and a real thing of, like, we don't want agriculture to go down that route. No, yeah, I don't think it's good for anyone.
527 01:10:17.180 --> 01:10:31.380 Ben Wielgus: Yeah, I think it's where soil becomes that sterile growing medium like you might see in the Middle East or the US where they're growing in deserts and it's just, it's a holding state. You might as well do hydroponics or that kind of thing. So I see Mark's just put his hand up, but if I could squeeze one.
528 01:10:31.380 --> 01:10:31.710 Emma Sherlock: Oh.
529 01:10:31.710 --> 01:10:38.949 Ben Wielgus: Which is, this completely escaped my brain, actually. So, Mark, you can go. Sorry. I can.
530 01:10:38.950 --> 01:10:40.880 Frank Deas, Killearn: We'll go back to Ben. Mark, go.
531 01:10:41.360 --> 01:11:00.780 Mark South: Thank you very much, Emma. In America, vermicomposting and vermiculture is a much bigger business than in this country. I'm, I do. I have my own worm farms, and I help out on an organic farm with production of worm castings.
532 01:11:01.300 --> 01:11:18.740 Mark South: And as a… as a profitability side, he saves one in four bags of, fertilizer he's using for seeds and things like that. What… why do you think… is… is it a government initiative, a council initiative, or what? Why is there not more emphasis put on
533 01:11:18.740 --> 01:11:22.410 Mark South: Worm composted a vermicomposted and vermiculture.
534 01:11:23.180 --> 01:11:40.320 Emma Sherlock: I really don't know. To be honest, when I met Graham, it was because I was doing a talk, but at a vermicomposting event, which was amazing for me because, yeah, it's something I want to know a lot more about, but they talked about exactly that.
535 01:11:40.320 --> 01:11:44.320 Emma Sherlock: of, in America, vermicomposting is huge.
536 01:11:44.320 --> 01:11:46.050 Emma Sherlock: And yet here.
537 01:11:46.050 --> 01:11:57.720 Emma Sherlock: It's really hard to break through and get it across to everyone how important it is and also how fabulous that product is. It's the best product.
538 01:11:57.750 --> 01:12:06.830 Emma Sherlock: you could have. But why exactly? I don't know. I assume it's government investment. I assume.
539 01:12:06.860 --> 01:12:23.029 Emma Sherlock: But yes, sorry, Graham might be best for giving you the… Actually, maybe I should find out the exact reason they gave. I think it was government investment, but I'll go back to the…
540 01:12:23.060 --> 01:12:42.719 Emma Sherlock: The gentleman from the Isle of Wight who organised the event and who set up his own very impressive worm farm now. And I'll see what exactly it was he said, but I think it was government funding, but it just seems crazy to me.
541 01:12:42.740 --> 01:12:48.250 Emma Sherlock: It, it should be much bigger here and that's fabulous that that's what, what, what you're doing.
542 01:12:49.460 --> 01:12:50.360 Mark South: Thank you.
543 01:12:52.700 --> 01:12:54.090 Frank Deas, Killearn: Ben, did you recall your…
544 01:12:54.090 --> 01:13:04.419 Ben Wielgus: I did. Yeah. And I remember I thought it was very interesting when you talked about the benefits of the earthworms and some of that was using the, I think it's bacteria in their guts to process minerals. Emma.
545 01:13:04.700 --> 01:13:13.560 Ben Wielgus: Does do earthworms and these mitochondrial fungi networks that we're hearing so much about in the soil, are they related or are they just sort of side by side?
546 01:13:14.240 --> 01:13:31.389 Emma Sherlock: So they're, they're side by side basically, but they are all working together to do those, those same things. Basically it's, yeah, it, it's incredible the amount of work that they're, they're doing in slightly different.
547 01:13:31.520 --> 01:13:50.350 Emma Sherlock: Different ways yeah but it's yeah it's all of them just just working to together basically so in the earthworm scups it's bacteria but also sort of protozoa and other soil organisms but but yeah they're just sort of working alongside each other to
548 01:13:50.380 --> 01:13:52.739 Emma Sherlock: to do this nutrient conversion.
549 01:13:53.460 --> 01:13:56.640 Ben Wielgus: Thank you very much, and thank you for your time, Emma. It was really good.
550 01:13:56.930 --> 01:13:58.900 Emma Sherlock: No, thanks for listening.
551 01:13:58.900 --> 01:14:10.989 Frank Deas, Killearn: No, I think, I mean, you have such an enthusiasm and an infectious passion for your topic that it's very hard not to be caught up in it and say, well, yes, tell us more, we want to hear more. Sue, a question.
552 01:14:10.990 --> 01:14:28.410 Sue Burton Battle TC: Yeah, thank you. So, interested in all the points about the garden, and we can easily relay… start to relay that to residents. The other bit is that we also have our connections, with,
553 01:14:32.730 --> 01:14:42.120 Sue Burton Battle TC: growers that are using are not necessarily organic, because they say it's so expensive to get registered, but their methods are really great.
554 01:14:42.120 --> 01:14:53.500 Sue Burton Battle TC: Right. People are buying small, are being, buying small pieces of land and are, are, are starting to, to work towards, doing it sustainably.
555 01:14:53.500 --> 01:15:06.800 Sue Burton Battle TC: How can we say have you thought about using worms for your composting for your organic matter? What how can we link?
556 01:15:07.130 --> 01:15:17.540 Sue Burton Battle TC: that idea to growers that are already… are working, but not necessarily using… and don't live on the Isle of Wight.
557 01:15:17.540 --> 01:15:32.799 Emma Sherlock: Well, I think it's very easy to set up your own compost. So I would definitely encourage them to give it a go because I think they'd see results if they started to use vermicompost.
558 01:15:32.800 --> 01:15:41.379 Emma Sherlock: But also it would be interesting if they started to actually look at what worms that they've got in their soil. Have a think about what practices.
559 01:15:41.380 --> 01:15:42.910 Emma Sherlock: They are using…
560 01:15:42.910 --> 01:15:51.810 Emma Sherlock: So, are they, you know, tilling the soil or are they not? Because, obviously if they're going through and.
561 01:15:52.090 --> 01:15:53.689 Emma Sherlock: Tilling the soil that…
562 01:15:53.710 --> 01:16:08.589 Emma Sherlock: that's obviously, important, but actually, if you let earthworms do that themselves, then you're not wiping out all the anesic worms, which generally happen, and the surface dwellers. It's usually only the endogenics, which
563 01:16:08.590 --> 01:16:17.130 Emma Sherlock: can really survive intensive tilling, which then narrows you down to just having one of those three important groups rather than all three.
564 01:16:17.160 --> 01:16:20.159 Emma Sherlock: Which means then they won't be able to do that job.
565 01:16:20.270 --> 01:16:21.380 Emma Sherlock: for you.
566 01:16:21.600 --> 01:16:22.300 Emma Sherlock: Okay.
567 01:16:22.300 --> 01:16:30.080 Sue Burton Battle TC: Sorry, Emma, just because it's the I don't understand the terminology very well. So you're.
568 01:16:30.080 --> 01:16:31.490 Emma Sherlock: Sorry, I can't see.
569 01:16:31.490 --> 01:16:40.940 Sue Burton Battle TC: No, no, it's learning. So I would think neither of these two things that I'm thinking of, the vegetable growing and the farm.
570 01:16:41.180 --> 01:16:56.350 Sue Burton Battle TC: would be tilling. Oh, great. You're saying… so then you got the analysis of their soil content for worms. Yes. And then you said, get in… get… do… could you repeat what you said to do?
571 01:16:56.350 --> 01:17:04.169 Emma Sherlock: Definitely having a go with their own vermicomposting. So, yeah, having their own compost heap.
572 01:17:04.380 --> 01:17:20.259 Emma Sherlock: and… and… and actually, yeah, trialling using vermicomposting on their… on their land if they… if they can, because I… I think they'd… I mean, Mark, obviously, is more of an expert in vermicomposting than… than me, but… but it is just…
573 01:17:20.260 --> 01:17:27.739 Emma Sherlock: yeah, a fabulous product that, that you could, you could do yourself or get advice from a vermicomposter.
574 01:17:27.750 --> 01:17:28.710 Emma Sherlock: And.
575 01:17:30.180 --> 01:17:31.420 Emma Sherlock: And yeah.
576 01:17:31.420 --> 01:17:33.860 Sue Burton Battle TC: How do you spell thermo thermo.
577 01:17:33.860 --> 01:17:36.350 Emma Sherlock: Vermicomposting, V-E-R.
578 01:17:36.350 --> 01:17:38.420 Sue Burton Battle TC: V-e-r.
579 01:17:38.420 --> 01:17:40.990 Emma Sherlock: Oh yeah, the worms were the vermies, so…
580 01:17:40.990 --> 01:17:45.169 Sue Burton Battle TC: So, see, I'm starting at basics here, Emma, but.
581 01:17:45.170 --> 01:17:46.060 Emma Sherlock: We don't know.
582 01:17:46.060 --> 01:17:46.430 Sue Burton Battle TC: Tom.
583 01:17:46.430 --> 01:17:46.959 Emma Sherlock: Alright, br.
584 01:17:46.960 --> 01:17:50.440 Sue Burton Battle TC: get the word thermal composting.
585 01:17:50.440 --> 01:17:52.170 Emma Sherlock: Vermicomposting, yeah.
586 01:17:52.170 --> 01:17:55.810 Sue Burton Battle TC: Velanamia and St. Albans and all that.
587 01:17:58.020 --> 01:17:58.400 Sue Burton Battle TC: Brill.
588 01:17:58.400 --> 01:18:03.560 Emma Sherlock: Yeah, so I would definitely encourage that.
589 01:18:03.700 --> 01:18:07.629 Emma Sherlock: And, yeah, and, and then see how they.
590 01:18:07.770 --> 01:18:15.759 Emma Sherlock: See how they get on. But definitely, if you can get the worms to do the heavy lifting for you, it's, it's a win all round, I think.
591 01:18:15.760 --> 01:18:17.719 Sue Burton Battle TC: Brilliant. Thank you so much.
592 01:18:17.720 --> 01:18:18.679 Emma Sherlock: No, thank you.
593 01:18:18.680 --> 01:18:25.280 Frank Deas, Killearn: So thanks again. It's been excellent and informative, but really enjoyable, as you can see from the video.
594 01:18:25.280 --> 01:18:25.660 Emma Sherlock: Quest.
595 01:18:25.660 --> 01:18:45.669 Frank Deas, Killearn: There's a real buzz about the thing. I do think, and tell us if we can do lobbying on your behalf, the Natural History Museum has to reduce the dinosaur toys it does and have some worm toys, you know, because we should be reaching out to the kids and saying, right, here's what you can do that is junior science, and I'm thinking about that, rather than just crystal.
596 01:18:45.670 --> 01:19:01.149 Frank Deas, Killearn: growing or discovering a dinosaur skeleton that's been tucked away in clay. There must be things that, so that's, that's the other challenge for you is think of how you can transfer your, your passion and excitement into a kid's toy that we can then encourage the National Museum to, to stock.
597 01:19:01.150 --> 01:19:12.040 Emma Sherlock: You see, I would love that. I would love that. The museum will tell me that the sales of the dinosaur toys are a lot greater, but I agree.
598 01:19:12.040 --> 01:19:12.959 Frank Deas, Killearn: But we've been through.
599 01:19:12.960 --> 01:19:13.580 Emma Sherlock: Important.
600 01:19:13.580 --> 01:19:18.959 Frank Deas, Killearn: They're greater because that's what they sell. They produce. You don't produce one for you. And we need
601 01:19:19.090 --> 01:19:38.169 Frank Deas, Killearn: If we're going to, and the growth in permaculture, and it's great to have people on today who've got that background, but equally, we've seen that people who don't have that background are keen to find out more and to learn, and I think we recognise the growth in no-dig cultivation, the need to actually work in a…
602 01:19:38.390 --> 01:19:53.979 Frank Deas, Killearn: positive collaboration with our environment means worms should be becoming more important, and the more we can do to treat stitch generation, the better. So, so thank you very much indeed. I don't think there's any more questions, so I think it just remains to, to thank you again. It's, it's been tremendous. I think
603 01:19:54.010 --> 01:20:05.739 Frank Deas, Killearn: Graham will be back to tell us all what we're doing next week. But in the meantime, thanks all for joining us. But thanks in particular to Emma for sharing her passion and excitement and introducing us to the world of worms. Fascinating.
604 01:20:05.740 --> 01:20:07.220 Emma Sherlock: Thank you very much for having me.
605 01:20:07.220 --> 01:20:07.770 Cllr Stuart Withington Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: Thank you.
606 01:20:07.770 --> 01:20:09.180 Emma Sherlock: I've loved it. Thank you.
607 01:20:09.180 --> 01:20:10.049 Cllr Stuart Withington Gt Dunmow TC, Essex: Right, right.
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